Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Thorsten, Pr.Eugen and all,

You are right Thorsten, your explanation is correct .... but, ... Pr.Eugen is right as well..... :wink:

I think Pr.Eugen has found an interesting area of investigation into the Admiral Hipper class warships.

I have to admit I have responded without having read the previous page here, but after having done that now everything is more clear to me.

He is looking for an explanation on a defined area, aside A turret barbette were on the hull the belt itself is finished.

Looking at the photos he posted on the previous page it is clear what he is looking for, and now I understand also his reference to Groner drawing on that area.

What appears is that they have " added " some plating to increase the protection on that area " externally " .... so we have 2 possibilities here.

Either is still an 80 mm belt, ... applied externally on the hull .. since there the line of the ship body decreases significantly.... so no possibility to extend the internal belt .....
...or it is something thicker than that ..still starting inside the hull so thicker than the 80 mm belt .... and NOt applied only externally like it seems to me at first glance.

Now we need to know the reason why they did that there ... and I think I have found one possible solution here..... since inside on that area there was the 203 mm charges deposit of Anton and Bruno turrets, ... so a very good reason to protect the area the best they could from an external hit.

My reference now are Prinz Eugen Schmalenbach drawings on the sections and Blucher ones .... were the 203 mm charges deposit ( 20,3 cm Pulver Kammer ) is clearly located there inside.

Opinions welcome.... Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Pr.Eugen »

Thorsten Wahl wrote:Hipper class had no external belt. The belt was hidden under the bulge of the "äußerer Wallgang"
Yes of course.
However, in the bow and stern armor belt out of the bulge.
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Pr.Eugen »

Antonio, It is possible for that the zone thickness of 40 mm continued to aft on 153 frame (at 153 frames we see the 40-mm armor traverse in the armour diagram), and it is superimposed on the site outside the armor-plate 80-mm thick.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Pr.Eugen,

now that I know what you are exactly looking for it is more easy for me to follow your reasoning.

I am now looking ONLY at Admiral Hipper photos into the dry dock in Wilhelmshaven after HMS Glowworm damages, were that area is very well taken into photos.

What seems to me is that your signalled initial plate ( the one you circled in red ) starts after the belt internally ( the one Thorsten correctly outlined ) is over.
I mean the plate ends internally and only after this plate intended to protect the 203 mm charges room starts. Afetr this one it starts a wider and larger ( 40 mm plate ?? maybe ), so one after the other and not one on top of the other ... if this was your question.

So the protection sequence should be : internal belt of 80 mm... external small applied plate of 80 mm ... external larger plate of 40 mm till the bow.

The same thing they did aft for D turret chambers, same scheme of protection aft too.

Funny to realize .... it was NOT a modification,... as it is like this since the very beginning of Adm Hipper still with the straight bow in Hamburg at B&V,... and when the ship is camouflaged in Brest it is very difficult to see it, .... so congratulation to Pr.Eugen,....for this catch ! Bravo !

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Pr.Eugen »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,
What seems to me is that your signalled initial plate ( the one you circled in red ) starts after the belt internally ( the one Thorsten correctly outlined ) is over.
I mean the plate ends internally and only after this plate intended to protect the 203 mm charges room starts. Afetr this one it starts a wider and larger ( 40 mm plate ?? maybe ), so one after the other and not one on top of the other ... if this was your question.
I expected this performance ...
Image

Maybe I'm wrong. :lol:
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello Pr.Eugen,

now that I know what you ar etalking about, everything is much easier.

No, according to M.J. Whitley, .. which was a great Kriegsmarine historical researcher and does have all my trust, .... on his book on German cruisers, .... at page 39 talking about protection of Admiral Hipper he wrote :

" ... At the end of the main belt a joggle, 80 mm thick, was incorporated to accomodate teh joint with the transverse armoured bulkheads, which closed the ends of teh armoured carapace. Forward of the 80 mm belt, the side protection was continued with a 40 mm to frame station 191,5 and hence to the bows as only 20 mm. At the after end a 70 mm belt, which extended to frame station 6, protected the steering gear. "

So according to Whitley and as I have thought, no 80 mm on top of theh 40 mm as you draw above, .. but the 80 mm and after the 40 mm, as it is visible also on the photos by looking at the riveted plates on good quality photos.

So your dark blue line ( 40 mm ) should start AFTER the 80 mm .... they are NOT one on top of the other there as you draw.

Now lets see were exactly they start on the frames .... bravo to you anyhow.... nice finding !

Bye Antonio :wink:
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Pr.Eugen »

Antonio, tank you. :cool:

I read Whitley.
This question (of armor), I came after studying the photo, especially the one with which I began this topic
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello Pr.Eugen,

I see and you did realy great my friend, as so far I have never had the chance to analyze so deeply this hull detail.

Now I think with your photos and schemes and all those explanations all the Admiral Hipper class lovers do have more details of her hull to think about.

Never to forget that once they installed the degaussing cable, it was just passing all along the hull more or less on top of those areas, so it was hiding the plates connections, .. and on top,...a lot of painture too for the many camouflage changed, ... so very difficult to see it unless you know exactly what are you looking for ...... :wink:

Bye and thanks for your finding.... Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Pr.Eugen »

Antonio, thank you again... :D

I will look further. :cool:
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao all,

@ Pr.Eugen,

I think you deserve to make the final results of your finding and since I see you are good with computer graphics,..do you mind to post the 2 pieces of hull,... bow and stern were it is possible to see the plates we were talking about so everybody can realize it ?

If you use both Whitley scheme with compartments and Morskie external drawings, one on top of the other you can draw in RED exactly now were and how those plates were so everybody will easily realize what we discussed about.

Bye and congratulations again .... Antonio :wink:
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Pr.Eugen »

Hi, Antonio and all.

I will try ...
But I can not promise to do quickly.
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao all,

thanks Pr.Eugen,.... no problems, .. take your time and in case you need any help,.. do not hesitate,... you know how to get an hand on me.

Last night I have already made a sample with 2 drawings just to put it on my Adm Hipper drawing folder not to forget what we discussed about .... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by RNfanDan »

To confirm the fact that all three initial cruisers of the Admiral Hipper class featured the same armor configuration, here is a view of Blücher which I found on the www. at some point in the past five years (I have no link or other record of its origin, sorry :( ).
Armor detail Blücher
Armor detail Blücher
Blücher Post-launch.png (94.04 KiB) Viewed 3773 times
Three further comments I must offer on the block of armor:

1. Homogenous Wotan-hardened belt armor is unlikely to have been supported externally by hull plating or other Wotan homogenous armor; it would seem unlikely that the plate seen in the photographs presented in this thread, therefore, was a "patch job" or a last-second thought on the part of the designers/builders.

2. It would have been secured and nested within supporting internal frames, and I must question the idea that it could be supported by either softer steel plates or from another internal hardened armor belt, without attachment or support by those frames.

3. It very clearly does not disturb the configuration of the hull bulge, an indication that it does not extend aft any further along the hull beneath the bulge, itself.

Considering the above points, it would seem logical that this rectangular block was a single, autonomous piece of armor that was deliberately incorporated into the design of these ships, and was a full 40mm thickness on its own. It is a feature fairly well defined in photographs, and accurately depicted in some line darwings of the area. As Antonio has stated, however, I agree that it is easily overlooked unless you are expecting to see it!

Dan
Image
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by paulcadogan »

Hi all,

Now to ship models....this feature IS depicted on the hull of the Tamiya 1/700 Prinz Eugen...but is missing from the Trumpeter 1/700 Hipper and the Airfix 1/600 Prinz.

It's not absolutely perfect, but congratulations to Tamiya for recognizing and depicting that detail!
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Tamiya 1/700 Prinz Eugen
Tamiya 1/700 Prinz Eugen
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Post by Pr.Eugen »

paulcadogan wrote:Hi all,

Now to ship models....this feature IS depicted on the hull of the Tamiya 1/700 Prinz Eugen...but is missing from the Trumpeter 1/700 Hipper and the Airfix 1/600 Prinz.

It's not absolutely perfect, but congratulations to Tamiya for recognizing and depicting that detail!
As for me ... :D
This plate is easy to see but hard to explain.
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