Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
- Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
Ciao all,
it is good after some time being back and read the comments of my friends Paul and Dan above, .... always with a lot of value add like Sean ( Wadinga ) before ....
@ Dan,
YES, I agree with you Dan, ... they placed those plates ... after ... so they were riveted and not soldered like the remaining part of the hull parts.
@ Paul,
Tamiya did well, .... but in reality they should have made the plates complete with all the rectangular form and not only the above part of them as a profile,... just like the drawing Pr.Eugen showed,... in reality as you can see on photos,.... the plates were very well visible especially when the ship was new and with only one painture done on the hull.
@ Pr.Eugen,
those plates explanation is fairly easy,..the 80 mm plate is an addittional protection to the 203 mm powder chamber of A turret were high explosive was into.
The 40 mm plate thru teh bow is only addittional anti torpedo protection.
On the stern , the 70 mm plate is to protect the D turret powder chamber as well as anti torpedo protection.
Room for improvements for modelers now,...just using a couple of simple plastic thin sheets, ... and your model becomes perfect !
Bye Antonio
it is good after some time being back and read the comments of my friends Paul and Dan above, .... always with a lot of value add like Sean ( Wadinga ) before ....
@ Dan,
YES, I agree with you Dan, ... they placed those plates ... after ... so they were riveted and not soldered like the remaining part of the hull parts.
@ Paul,
Tamiya did well, .... but in reality they should have made the plates complete with all the rectangular form and not only the above part of them as a profile,... just like the drawing Pr.Eugen showed,... in reality as you can see on photos,.... the plates were very well visible especially when the ship was new and with only one painture done on the hull.
@ Pr.Eugen,
those plates explanation is fairly easy,..the 80 mm plate is an addittional protection to the 203 mm powder chamber of A turret were high explosive was into.
The 40 mm plate thru teh bow is only addittional anti torpedo protection.
On the stern , the 70 mm plate is to protect the D turret powder chamber as well as anti torpedo protection.
Room for improvements for modelers now,...just using a couple of simple plastic thin sheets, ... and your model becomes perfect !
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
- Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
Hello everybody,
I have asked some insights also to the German friends on Marinearchiv forum :
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 0.html#new
and as you can see I have added a schematic very poorly done but it should be useful enough to understand the concept on the bow,... on the stern was close to the same.
Bye Antonio
I have asked some insights also to the German friends on Marinearchiv forum :
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 0.html#new
and as you can see I have added a schematic very poorly done but it should be useful enough to understand the concept on the bow,... on the stern was close to the same.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
That situation will be rectified on my just-acquired, classic (meaning: old-mould), Airfix Prinz Eugen kit. It will be among the very few planned ship-model projects of mine that will approach "OOB", maybe 70% or so original, but even without new the hull detail, it will need other tweaks to bring it into proper Op. Cerberus configuration. Might as well get the whole thing right, while I'm at it!paulcadogan wrote:...this feature IS depicted on the hull of...[other kits], but is missing from ... the Airfix 1/600 Prinz.
To Pr. Eugen: I would also like to also explain my earlier post: My meaning was lost in translation. There was no such thing as a Messen-Mitscherkopf diverter; I was merely "Messin' mit your kopf", in my nonsensical vernacular.
I think Paul, Wadinga, and Antonio might "get it" , but it lies in another , earlier period of time and at another web forum, before your time.
Please accept my apology, it was not meant to deliberately mislead you.
Cheers all, and Merry Christmas!
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
Dan, no problem ... :)RNfanDan wrote: To Pr. Eugen: I would also like to also explain my earlier post: My meaning was lost in translation. There was no such thing as a Messen-Mitscherkopf diverter; I was merely "Messin' mit your kopf", in my nonsensical vernacular.
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
All,
Sorry but I simply can't imagine that Whitley, Koop & Schmolke etc missed this huge chunk of Applique armour bodged over the top of the existing layout, like something welded on the side of a Sherman to give it a chance against a Tiger. The Hipper armour scheme is weird anyway with a wasteful, heavy, seperate, strake going all the way to the bow anyway, (not All or nothing) but this would be mad.
Look again at the first picture of the Glowworm damage. This thing is thick, at least one porthole diameter in thickness, say 30cm.
I think the answer is still out there.
Yes, BTW I did get Mitscher Kopf, I expect you were hoping someone would ask why it only works in the Baltic.
All the best
wadinga
Sorry but I simply can't imagine that Whitley, Koop & Schmolke etc missed this huge chunk of Applique armour bodged over the top of the existing layout, like something welded on the side of a Sherman to give it a chance against a Tiger. The Hipper armour scheme is weird anyway with a wasteful, heavy, seperate, strake going all the way to the bow anyway, (not All or nothing) but this would be mad.
Look again at the first picture of the Glowworm damage. This thing is thick, at least one porthole diameter in thickness, say 30cm.
I think the answer is still out there.
Yes, BTW I did get Mitscher Kopf, I expect you were hoping someone would ask why it only works in the Baltic.
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
- Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
Ciao everybody,
@ Wadinga,
Sean my friend, either Whitley and Koop & Schmolke covered the matter but not in such a way that was so easy to catch it without a careful read and look.
Whitley showed an internal ship layout and covered the matter writing it with no schemes, .... Koop & Schmolke made a poor overall scheme were is very difficult to get it right.
Now here I have highlighted on Koop & Schmolke drawing from their book what the real layout was in place since the very beginning as on Adm Hipper photos with the ship still to be completed and commissioned, you can see those external plates very well ...same goes for Blucher and Prinz Eugen too.
On Marinearchiv forum I have posted a new drawing and Pr.Euegn made another on too, so everything should be fairly easy now to be realized.
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 1.html#new
Bye Antonio
@ Wadinga,
Sean my friend, either Whitley and Koop & Schmolke covered the matter but not in such a way that was so easy to catch it without a careful read and look.
Whitley showed an internal ship layout and covered the matter writing it with no schemes, .... Koop & Schmolke made a poor overall scheme were is very difficult to get it right.
Now here I have highlighted on Koop & Schmolke drawing from their book what the real layout was in place since the very beginning as on Adm Hipper photos with the ship still to be completed and commissioned, you can see those external plates very well ...same goes for Blucher and Prinz Eugen too.
On Marinearchiv forum I have posted a new drawing and Pr.Euegn made another on too, so everything should be fairly easy now to be realized.
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 1.html#new
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1580
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
My guess: The belt inside the bulge ends at the bulkhead. There is one plate external belt starting at the same bulkhead, which is not in the same alignment with the internal belt.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
It's "homebrew" scheme of the armor belts "Hipper"-class cruisers.
It's explains the location of armor belt, but do not remove the question of the thickness of the belt in forward.
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1580
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
No, the upper edges of the 80 mm internal and external belt have the same alignment.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
Yes of course ...Herr Nilsson wrote:No, the upper edges of the 80 mm internal and external belt have the same alignment.
I did a quick and did not look at the accuracy.
It was important to understand the overall placement.
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1580
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
I personally have no problem with a thickness of 80 mm at all.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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- Senior Member
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- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:17 pm
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
Unterlagen zur Bestimmung der Hauptkampfentfernung did not mention other belt thicknes then 80mm.
in other cases special features (increased thicknesses) were usually mentioned.
in other cases special features (increased thicknesses) were usually mentioned.
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1580
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
Yes, I totally agree.
Generally such external belt plates are not unusual. The Panzerschiffe had very much the same plates, but on them they had the shape of the bulge (like the rear plate of the Hipper-class as well). If one take a look at pictures of the Panzerschiffe, the main belt is visible and the tapering in regard to the thickness looks like the one on Hipper.
http://www.deutschland-class.dk/admiral ... unch06.jpg
Generally such external belt plates are not unusual. The Panzerschiffe had very much the same plates, but on them they had the shape of the bulge (like the rear plate of the Hipper-class as well). If one take a look at pictures of the Panzerschiffe, the main belt is visible and the tapering in regard to the thickness looks like the one on Hipper.
http://www.deutschland-class.dk/admiral ... unch06.jpg
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
-
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:17 pm
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
Ther is also a photo of Hipper in Marinearsenal Spezial Band 6 "Die Panzerung der deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1920 - 1945" page 18
english translation
http://www.kbismarck.com/articles.html
english translation
http://www.kbismarck.com/articles.html
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers
Thanks, did not think to look in "Unterlagen..." :)Thorsten Wahl wrote:Unterlagen zur Bestimmung der Hauptkampfentfernung did not mention other belt thicknes then 80mm.