Kaiser Wilhelm photo

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marcelo_malara
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Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by marcelo_malara »

Hi all:

Anyone can confirm if the person in this photo is the Kaiser?

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Terje Langoy
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by Terje Langoy »

I can't confirm 100% but it does indeed look a lot like him. Given the overly decorated chest probability is very great. That being said, I have my mind set that maybe the future president Paul Hindenburg can be seen at the bottom of the stairs at the right hand of the photo, which then would support the notion of the Kaisers presence even further. As a curious observation, it appears that the Hindenburg-character is the only one present here not to wear parade uniform, in fact he seems to be the only non-naval fellow in this company. Do you know when and where the image was captured, Marcelo?
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marcelo_malara
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by marcelo_malara »

Thanks for your answer Terje. The photograph was submitted to a local naval history forum. Originally it was captioned as the Argentine president visiting the training ship Sarmiento in Buenos Aires, but then someone said that the photo was taken in Kiel during a visit of the ship to Germany and that the person was the Kaiser. The one standing by the ladder is said to be using an 1870 Iron Cross, may be this data is useful to you.

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RNfanDan
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by RNfanDan »

Maybe the guy by the ladder is the Kaiser, trying his best to sneak away before the camera shoots! :lol:
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Didn´t the Kaiser had a problem with his right arm? It was a dead arm. If that´s so then the guy is NOT the Kaiser because it seems he has the right arm raised.
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marcelo_malara
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by marcelo_malara »

Hi Karl, it was his left arm.
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Terje Langoy
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by Terje Langoy »

IF I were to follow up the notion of this being the ARA Presidente Sarmiento, with the Argentine president aboard, then I would draw the conclusion that we do have Kaiser Wilhelm present here and that the character facing the photographer at the centre of the image in fact could be the President Julio Argentino Roca, dating the image to the period 1900-04. The Presidente Sarmiento was commissioned in 1888 (?) thus she was not a particulary old vessel at that time. It appears to me that there are indeed two head of states (or at least very high-ranked officers) present here. But I'm anything but sure here.

As for Hindenburg, he did distinguish himself both in the Austo-Prussian and later Franco-Prussian wars, which both took place just before or just after 1870. Did he get a Iron cross back then? I don't know. Is it really him at the photo? I'm not sure. You see, these Prussian officers all look very alike to me.
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marcelo_malara
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by marcelo_malara »

I must say that I am amazed of your knowledge about us, or at least of your effort in the search!!!!
The ARA Sarmiento was commissioned in 1898. I think that it is pretty sure that she is the ship: the stairs on the right were used to clear the high bulwarks (still are, as the ship is still extant as museum), and in front of them a shroud can be distinguished.
It would have been very difficult to have both the Argentine president and the Kaiser onboard, I don´t know of any trip of her carrying the president. May be the man in plain clothes is an Argentine ambassador.

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RF
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by RF »

I think I have seen the photo before, but I cannot recall where. I do remember a caption with the photo saying that it was the Kaiser.
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Terje Langoy
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by Terje Langoy »

Thank you very much for those kind words, Marcelo. This was not knowledge I already possessed but acquired as I ran a search for the Sarmiento in an effort to find an operational history of her. That would be the nut cracker to the puzzle, don't you think?

It seems a general agreement that this is indeed Kaizer Wilhelm II. As I further recall, there was a fleet review at Spithead in August 1902 (coronation of King Edward VII) and so the Sarmiento might have been present. I'm anything but sure. King Edward VII was the uncle of Wilhelm II and thus the German Emperor would most certainly be present here. It does fit my earlier estimation of the picture's probable time period. (1900-04) The guy at centre of the photo does not have any military hat of some sort and appears to be the "civilian" fellow in this party, being either an Argentine President or Ambassador, as you suggested. The other fellow I previously suspected to be Hindenburg might actually be Berhard von Bülow, which Kaizer Wilhelm II had made Chancellor in 1900. He would be the right man to accompany the Emperor at such occasions as the 1902 Fleet review. Furthermore, he fought in the Franco-Prussian wars (1870-71) which in so case would fit perfect with the Iron Cross being dated 1870. However this is just a long summary of deductions, no definitive clues. As mentioned at the top of this post, the operational history of the Sarmiento would contribute substantially.

But I hope that I at least have managed to guide you towards a viable posibility.
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by marcelo_malara »

Hi Terje:

Indeed the Sarmiento was in the 1902 Naval Review.
Her career: from 1900 until 1937 she was used to carry the last year Naval College students in a "round the world" instruction trip. I should mention she is a three-masted full-rigged ship built in UK for this purpose. The "round the world" tour consisted not of a circumnavigation but a round the Atlantic journey in which several American and European ports would be touched. I should digg more to know exactly which ports she arrived in which years, but surely she had more than one oportunity to have te Kaiser on board.
She was replaced in 1937 by succesively various cruisers for the anual training, until about 1960 the new ARA Libertad (also a three-masted ship) was commissioned. This year the Libertad would make I think the first true circumnavigation: she departed Buenos Aires in March for South Africa, crossing the Indian Ocean, the Pacific and then home again by Cape Horn, visiting various ports, I think she is in Japan right now.
The prefix ARA means Armada de la Republica Argentina (Argentine Republic Navy).

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RF
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by RF »

marcelo_malara wrote:Hi Terje:

Indeed the Sarmiento was in the 1902 Naval Review.
Her career: from 1900 until 1937 she was used to carry the last year Naval College students in a "round the world" instruction trip. I should mention she is a three-masted full-rigged ship built in UK for this purpose. The "round the world" tour consisted not of a circumnavigation but a round the Atlantic journey in which several American and European ports would be touched. I should digg more to know exactly which ports she arrived in which years, but surely she had more than one oportunity to have te Kaiser on board.
Navy).
Would the ship have included incursions into the Baltic and the Med on these round Atlantic cruises?
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by mike1880 »

"As I further recall, there was a fleet review at Spithead in August 1902 (coronation of King Edward VII) and so the Sarmiento might have been present. I'm anything but sure. King Edward VII was the uncle of Wilhelm II and thus the German Emperor would most certainly be present here."

Sarmiento may have been present at Spithead in 1902 but the Kaiser most certainly wasn't. Nor do I think that's von Bulow; von Bulow wasn't a soldier.

Mike
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by Herr Nilsson »

June 25th 1907
En Kiel A este puerto alemán en el cual se encuentra la fragata Sarmiento, llegó el Emperador Guillermo en el yate Imperial Hohenzollern.
La tripulación de la Sarmiento lanzó tres hurras al pasar el yate que contestó el Emperador, saludando a la nave.
Más tarde el ministro argentino y el comandante de la Sarmiento pasaron a saludar al Emperador , el que tuvo frases de elogio para los marinos de la Sarmiento.
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marcelo_malara
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Re: Kaiser Wilhelm photo

Post by marcelo_malara »

Hi all:
Would the ship have included incursions into the Baltic and the Med on these round Atlantic cruises?
Yes Robert, it was common at least to enter the Med, and visit Italy.

Herr Nilsson:

The phoho was taken in Kiel according to some sources, the article doesn´t say that the Kaiser came on board, but may be that is an omission.
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