Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

[Karl Heidenreich]

I´m not anti American and that has been demostrated in many posts, before and now. Having said that it is dissapointing that, when someone here criticize some American issue, then he becames, inmediately, anti American. That kind of position only helps to polarize stances. And I don´t how, on Earth, something like this can be regarded as inteligent:

...and the murdering nazi bastards deserved every one of those winters

[boredatwork]

Having said that it is dissapointing that, when someone here criticize some American issue, then he becames, inmediately, anti American.

Versus someone defending some American issue he becomes immediately Revisionist or Nationalistic?

as the US parachutist, US marines or US rangers can be regarded as very good soldiers and, in cases, the best in their respective theaters when compared to some B or C units their enemies were able to deploy.

Or a German pilot with hundreds of kills was, likely, not that good as a US pilot with five or none kills.

Above is a perfect example - you 'qualify' your rating of US soldiers with the notation that they fought against lesser quality units however you completely over react to the suggestion that the Russian pilots the Germans were running up their scores on the eastern front might have been easier targets than the Germans the Americans were killing on the western front. BTW if you actually read the thread in question no one is suggesting that on average German Pilots weren't at least as good as American Pilots - rather that the difference in pilot skill was nowhere near as extreme as comparing kill totals in complete isolation would suggest.

[Karl Heidenreich]

boreatwork:

Those statements were not made, and did not imply, any perjorative rating of the allied fighting man. Neither any offense to the American nation or nationals have been intended. But there is "a" certain perception which I think it is justified to counter. If an US made equipment failed there are made up "excuses", not even coherent reasons, that justify the failure. Justification that is being denied to the opposite side because then no jusitifcation is plausible. And this has being extended to all fields of technology and proficiency that is being discussed.

The remarks or examples that I have brought up are, merely, to counter that misguided "perception" and to remind that "excelence" does not limit itself to "just" one country or to a particular ideology or regime. Even as much as I dislike the "commies" I do not subscribe to the notion they were just cannon fodder; and we must acknowledge the fact that Germany´s fate was in due, for strategical purposes, the result of getting into a fight in numerical and logistical inferiority against three empires.

Again: I´m not anti American in any sense but I do believe that some "balance" has to be brought here. This argument will not even been taking place having that balance existed in the forum. If we fall into the falacy that "only" the US was proficient enough to win WWII then we are betraying History. Let´s remember that the casualties that the US had in two fronts in WWII were around the 2% of what the russians had in just one front, so how can we rest the totality of the allied victory upon the US effort? Vasielsky was right in that behalf and it is good that we re examine things upon that scope and open ourselves to those posibilities. But such an objective has been avoided and denied by some that regard that "US Only" philosophy cannot be challenged and, when so, then it is an attack against truth. And such an attitude, I think, is against the US basic principles.

I do not regret to come forward with this thread because I believe it was the right thing to do, even if mistaken because it gives to others the posibility to express themselves in this regard. But that expression is fruitless if it cames from irrational negative.

Best regards,

Karl

[mkenny]

In this paradigm then a US GI is to be regarded as a superior infrantry man if compared to a Waffen SS Panzergrenadier that fought for four years in the East against ten or fifteen times his numbers and endured several freezing winters

Compared to Waffen SS man in an organisation declared as 'criminal' and a group who helped kill 10 million Soviet civilians you mean?
My heart bleeds for these poor freezing innocents who never did anything wrong.
Why are so many people fascinated by this group of thugs?

instead of a single "Bastogne" in a front were the Germans never put their crack units

Never put their crack Units?

Normandy
1st SS Panzer Division ''Leibstandarte'
2nd SS Panzer Division 'Das Reich'
9th SS Panzer Division 'Hohenstaufen'
10th SS Panzer Division 'Frundsberg'
12th SS Panzer Division 'HJ'
17th SS Panzer-Grenadier Division 'Gotz von Berlichingen'
Panzer Lehr Panzer Division
2nd Panzer Division
21st Panzer Division
116 Panzer Division
sSS PzAbt 101
sSS PzAbt 102
sPzAbt 503

Plainly you have no real idea about troop dispositions.

[RF]

The propositions posed in Karl's initial post are far too simplistic. And it has led again to the usual ding dong oversimplified rhetoric over my tank is better than your tank and even the ridiculous suggestion that the Americans landed in Normandy so that the Russians could win the war and conquer half of Europe.

Hardly a proposition for intelligent debate.....

One of the best posts of recent times RF. I agree with you except for the term debate. The term should be discussion not debate. But debate on political grounds is what we are seeing here. What you have touched upon in one the most troubling trends I have seen recently in these forums. This trend is the politcalization of the forums. This was one reason I left another popular naval forum years ago. Although it is not possible to remove politics completely from discussion of WWII, politics have never been the primary context on these particular forums before. It used to be about intelligent discussion of the Bismarck's (and related topics) role in naval history. Of course since the Bismarck was a German battleship, the question of the Nazi's and their politics is never far away. Nonetheless, this really complicates objective discussion on true historical and technical matters when these things come to the surface.

I have reproduced this post as it is clear that its import has not registered with some people.

[Byron Angel]

I have reproduced this post as it is clear that its import has not registered with some people.

..... I quite agree. And it's very disheartening.


Byron

[Karl Heidenreich]

mkenny:

Never put their crack Units?

Normandy
1st SS Panzer Division ''Leibstandarte'
2nd SS Panzer Division 'Das Reich'
9th SS Panzer Division 'Hohenstaufen'
10th SS Panzer Division 'Frundsberg'
12th SS Panzer Division 'HJ'
17th SS Panzer-Grenadier Division 'Gotz von Berlichingen'
Panzer Lehr Panzer Division
2nd Panzer Division
21st Panzer Division
116 Panzer Division
sSS PzAbt 101
sSS PzAbt 102
sPzAbt 503

Plainly you have no real idea about troop dispositions.

Ambrosian Syndrome again: the mentioned units were not all concentrated at Bastogne, which was what I was refering to in my initial statement, but all around the Ardennes Offensive area. Some of them were never even near Bastogne at all, including the spearhead of the Leibstandarte which was Peiper´s unfamous unit.

Now, of those forces commited we have the following facts, which mkenny is not mentioning, of course:

(Taken from wikipedia)

In the north, the main armored spearhead of the Sixth SS Panzer Army was Kampfgruppe Peiper, consisting of 4,800 men and 600 vehicles of the 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler under the command of Joachim Peiper.

The reference made it clear that this group, even being the spearhead of a so called "strategic" offensive was undermanned. 4,800 men is hardly a match for the full manned US armoured divisions in the theater of operations. Also is the fact that those units, even stupidly compromised in an advance, were lacking of all the necesary fuel to perform their task.

Operation Wacht am Rhein was the final major offensive and last gamble Hitler was to make. Wilhelm Mohnke, now in command of the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler, was to lead his formation as the spearhead of the entire operation in the Ardennes. Attached to the I SS Panzer Corps, the LSSAH, one of the most elite and highly trained units in the entire German military. However, the divisions high casualties had forced it to take in a large number of inexperienced replacements to add to the core of battle-hardened and experienced veterans. The crisis in the Reich meant that the LSSAH had dangerously low amounts of fuel for the vehicles in the upcoming campaign. On 16 December 1944 the operation began, with Mohnke designating his best colonel, Standartenführer Joachim Peiper, and his regiment to lead the push to Antwerp.

Bottom line: the Leibtestandarte that faced the US forces in December 1944 was hardly the same unit that cut through the masses of Russian Armor at Prochokova in the summer of 1943. Vasiliesky´s statements are still valid, even with these considerations taken. By 1944 the German units were more nominal than real which is why we got the following balance:

Ardennes Offensive manpower:

Allies: 800,000
Germans: 500,000

There was never, even locally, the required superiority an attacker needs to succeed. The plan, as all late Hitler´s plans, was destined to fail from it´s birth.

But, still, the misinformation and misguidance is patent when it is stated that the whole of the undermanned German forces were concentrated around Bastonge when it was not the case: only some units were, such as the Hofenstaufen´s ones.

Also, if necesarry, we can analyse the manpower and equipment of the German units involved comparing them their force in the Russian Campaign against their pitifull condition in 1944-1945.

Best regards,

[Karl Heidenreich]

Just for not falling in false statements I bring forth the Order of Battle of the Contenders at the Ardennes Offensive.
Also from our favorite source, wikipedia:

German Order of Battle

[edit] Fifth Panzer Army
General der Panzertruppen Hasso von Manteuffel
19th Flak Brigade
207th and 600th Engineer Battalions
653rd Heavy Antitank Battalion
669th Ost (East) Battalion
638th, 1094th, and 1095th Heavy Artillery Batteries
25th/975th Fortress Artillery Battery
1099th, 1119th, and 1121st Heavy Mortar Batteries
3rd Todt Brigade (paramilitary engineers)
XLVII Panzer Corps
General der Panzertruppen Heinrich Freiherr von Lüttwitz
15th Volkswerfer Brigade
182nd Flak Regiment
766th Volksartillerie Corps
2nd Panzer Division
Col Meinrad von Lauchert
3rd Panzer Regiment
2nd and 304th Panzergrenadier Regiments
74th Artillery Regiment
2nd Recon Battalion
38th Antitank Battalion
38th Engineer Battalion
273rd Flak Battalion
38th Signals Battalion
9th Panzer Division
Genmaj Harold von Elverfeldt
33rd Panzer Regiment
10th and 11th Panzergrenadier Regiments
102nd Artillery Regiment
9th Recon Battalion
50th Antitank Battalion
86th Engineer Battalion
287th Flak Battalion
81st Signals Battalion
301st Heavy Panzer Battalion (attached)
Panzer-Lehr-Division
Genlt Fritz Bayerlein
130th Panzer Regiment
901st and 902nd Panzergrenadier Regiments
130th Artillery Regiment
130th Recon Battalion
130th Antitank Battalion
130th Engineer Battalion
311th Flak Battalion
559th Antitank Battalion (attached)
243rd Assault Gun Brigade (attached)
26th Volksgrenadier Division
Col Heinz Kokott
39th Fusilier and 77th and 78th Volksgrenadier Regiments
26th Artillery Regiment
26th Recon Battalion
26th Antitank Battalion
26th Engineer Battalion
26th Signals Battalion
Fuhrer Begleit Brigade
Col Otto Remer
102nd Panzer Battalion
100th Panzergrenadier Regiment
120th Artillery Regiment
120th Recon Battalion
120th Antitank Battalion
120th Engineer Battalion
828th Grenadier Battalion
673rd Flak Regiment
LXVI Corps
General der Artillerie Walter Lucht
16th Volkswerfer Brigade (86th and 87th Werfer Regiments)
244th Assault Gun Brigade
460th Heavy Artillery Battalion
18th Volksgrenadier Division
Col Hoffman-Schonborn
293rd, 294th, and 295th Volksgrenadier Regiments
1818th Artillery Regiment
1818th Antitank Battalion
1818th Engineer Battalion
1818th Signals Battalion
62nd Volksgrenadier Division
Col Frederich Kittel
164th, 193rd, and 190th Volksgrenadier Regiments
162nd Artillery Regiment
162nd Antitank Battalion
162nd Engineer Battalion
162nd Signals Battalion
LVIII Panzer Corps
General der Panzertruppen Walter Kruger
7th Volkswerfer Brigade (84th and 85th Werfer Regiments)
401st Volksartillerie Corps
1st Flak Regiment
116th Panzer Division
Genmaj Siegfried von Waldenburg
16th Panzer Regiment
60th and 156th Panzergrenadier Regiments
146th Artillery Regiment
146th Recon Battalion
226th Antitank Battalion
675th Engineer Battalion
281st Flak Battalion
560th Volksgrenadier Division
Col Rudolf Langhauser
1128th, 1129th, and 1130th Volksgrenadier Regiments
1560th Artillery Regiment
1560th Antitank Battalion
1560th Engineer Battalion
1560th Signals Battalion
XXXIX Panzer Corps
Genlt Karl Decker
167th Volksgrenadier Division
Genlt Hans-Kurt Hocker
331st, 339th, 387th Volksgrenadier Regiments
167th Artillery Regiment
167th Antitank Battalion
167th Engineer Battalion
167th Signals Battalion
[edit] Sixth Panzer Army
Oberstgruppenfuhrer der Waffen SS Josef Dietrich
506th Heavy Panzer Battalion
683rd Heavy Antitank Battalion
217th Assault Panzer Battalion
394th, 667th, and 902nd Assault Gun Battalions
741st Antitank Battalion
1098th, 1110th, and 1120th Heavy Howitzer Batteries
428th Heavy Mortar Battery
1123rd K-3 Battery
2nd Flak Division (41st and 43rd Regiments)
von der Heydte Fallschirmjager Battalion
4th Todt Brigade
I SS Panzer Corps
SS-Gruppenfuhrer Hermann Priess
4th Volkswerfer Brigade (51st and 53rd Werfer Regiments)
9th Volkswerfer Brigade (14th and 54th Werfer Regiments)
388th Volksartillerie Corps
402nd Volksartillerie Corps
501st SS-Artillery Battalion
501st SS-Artillery Observation Battalion
1st SS Panzer Division
SS Oberfuhrer Wilhelm Mohnke
1st SS Panzer Regiment
1st and 2nd SS Panzergrenadier Regiments
1st SS Artillery Regiment
1st SS Recon Battalion
1st SS Antitank Battalion
1st SS Engineer Battalion
1st SS Flak Battalion
1st SS Signals Battalion
501st SS Heavy Panzer Battalion (attached)
84th Luftwaffe Flak Battalion attached
3rd Parachute Division
Genmaj Wadehn
5th, 8th, and 9th Parachute Infantry Regiments
3rd Artillery Regiment
3rd Recon Battalion
3rd Antitank Battalion
3rd Engineer Battalion
3rd signals battalion
12th SS Panzer Division
SS Standartenfuhrer Hugo Kraas
12th SS Panzer Regiment
25th and 26th SS Panzergrenadier Regiments
12th SS Artillery Regiment
12th SS Recon Battalion
12th SS Antitank Battalion
12th SS Engineer Battalion
12th SS Flak Battalion
560th Heavy Antitank Battalion (attached)
12th Volksgrenadier Division
Genmaj Gerhard Engel
27th Fusilier and 48th and 89th Volksgrenadier Regiments
12th Artillery Regiment
12th Antitank Battalion
12th Fusilier Battalion
12th Engineer Battalion
12th Signals Battalion
277th Volksgrenadier Division
Col Wilhelm Viebig
289th, 990th, and 991st Volksgrenadier Regiments
277th Artillery Regiment
277th Antitank Battalion
277th Engineer Battalion
277th Signals Battalion
Panzer Brigade 150
Obersturmbannfuhrer der Waffen SS Otto Skorzeny
Two Panzer companies
Two Panzergrenadier companies
Two antitank companies
A heavy mortar battalion (two batteries)
600th SS Parachute Battalion Kampfgruppe 200 (Luftwaffe ground unit)
An anti-partisan company
II SS Panzer Corps
SS Obergruppenfuhrer Willi Bittrich
410th Volksartillerie Corps
502nd SS Heavy Artillery Battalion
502nd SS Artillery Observation Battalion
2nd SS Panzer Division
SS Brigadefuhrer Heinz Lammerding
2nd SS Panzer Regiment
3rd and 4th SS Panzergrenadier Regiments
2nd SS Artillery Regiment
2nd SS Recon Battalion
2nd SS Engineer Battalion
2nd SS Flak Battalion
2nd SS Signals Battalion
9th SS Panzer Division
SS Oberfuhrer Sylvester Stadler
9th SS Panzer Regiment
19th and 20th SS Panzergrenadier Regiments
9th SS Artillery Regiment
9th SS Recon Battalion
9th SS Antitank Battalion
9th SS Engineer Battalion
9th SS Flak Battalion
9th SS Signals Battalion
519th Heavy Antitank Battalion (attached)
LXVII Corps
Genlt Otto Hitzfeld
17th Volkswerfer Brigade (88th and 89th Werfer Regiments)
405th Volksartillerie Corps
1001st Heavy Assault Gun Company
3rd Panzergrenadier Division
Genmaj Walter Denkert
8th and 29th Panzergrenadier Regiments
103rd Panzer Battalion
3rd Artillery Regiment
103rd Recon Battalion
3rd Antitank Battalion
3rd Engineer Battalion
3rd Flak Battalion
3rd Signals Battalion
246th Volksgrenadier Division
Col Peter Koerte
352nd, 404th, and 689th VG Regiments
246th Artillery Regiment
246th Antitank Battalion
246th Engineer Battalion
246th Signals Battalion
272nd Volksgrenadier Division
Genmaj Eugen König
980th, 981st, and 982nd Volksgrenadier Regiments
272nd Artillery Regiment
272nd Antitank Battalion
272nd Engineer Battalion
272nd Signals Battalion
326th Volksgrenadier Division
751st, 752nd, and 753rd Volksgrenadier Regiments
326th Artillery Regiment
326th Antitank Battalion
326th Engineer Battalion
326th Signals Battalion
[edit] Seventh Army
General der Panzertruppen Erich Brandenberger
657th and 668th Heavy Antitank Battalions
501st Fortress Antitank Battalion
47th Engineer Battalion
1092nd, 1093rd, 1124th, and 1125th Heavy Howitzer Batteries
660th Heavy Artillery Battery
1029th, 1039th, and 1122nd Heavy Mortar Batteries
999th Penal Battalion
44th Machine Gun Battalion
15th Flak Regiment
1st Todt Brigade
LIII Corps
General der Kavallerie Edwin von Rothkirch
9th Volksgrenadier Division
Col Werner Kolb
36th, 57th, and 116th VG Regiments
9th Artillery Regiment
9th Antitank Battalion
9th Engineer Battalion
9th Signals Battalion
15th Panzergrenadier Division
Col Hans Joachim Deckert
104th and 115th Pzgr Regiments
115th Panzer Battalion
115th Artillery Regiment
115th Recon Battalion
33rd Antitank Battalion
33rd Engineer Battalion
33rd Flak Battalion
33rd Signals Battalion
Führer Grenadier Brigade
Col Hans Joachim Kahler
99th Pzgr Regiment
101st Panzer Battalion
911th Assault Gun Brigade
124th Antitank Battalion
124th Engineer Battalion
124th Flak Battalion
124th Artillery Regiment
LXXX Corps
General der Infanterie Franz Beyer
408th Volksartillerie Corps
8th Volkswerfer Brigade
2nd and Lehr Werfer Regiments
212th Volksgrenadier Division
Genmaj Franz Sensfuss
316th, 320th, and 423rd VG Regiments
212th Artillery Regiment
212th Antitank Battalion
212th Engineer Battalion
212th Signals Battalion
276th Volksgrenadier Division
Gen Kurt Mohring (later Col Hugo Dempwolff)
986th, 987th, and 988th VG Regiments
276th Artillery Regiment
276th Antitank Battalion
276th Engineer Battalion
276th Signals Battalion
340th Volksgrenadier Division
Col Theodor Tolsdorff
694th, 695th, and 696th VG Regiments
340th Artillery Regiment
340th Antitank Battalion
340th Engineer Battalion
340th Signals Battalion
LXXXV Corps
General der Infantrerie Baptist Kniess
406th Volksartillerie Corps
18th Volkswerfer Brigade (21st and 22nd Werfer Regiments)
5th Parachute Division
Col Ludwig Heilmann
13th, 14th, and 15th Parachute Infantry Regiments
5th Artillery Regiment
5th Recon Battalion
5th Engineer Battalion
5th Flak Battalion
11th Assault Gun Brigade
352nd Volksgrenadier Division
Col Erich Schmidt
914th, 915th, and 916th Volksgrenadier Regiments
352nd Artillery Regiment
352nd Antitank Battalion
352nd Engineer Battalion
352nd Signals Battalion
79th Volksgrenadier Division
Col Alois Weber
208th, 212th, and 226th Volksgrenadier Regiments
179th Artillery Regiments
179th Antitank Battalion
179th Engineer Battalion
179th Signals Battalion

US and Allied Order Of Battle

[edit] 12th Army Group
LTG Omar N. Bradley
[edit] U.S. First Army
LTG Courtney H. Hodges
5th Belgian Fusilier Battalion
143rd and 413th AA Gun Battalions
526th Armored Infantry Battalion
99th Infantry Battalion (Norwegian-Americans)
[edit] V Corps
MG Leonard T. Gerow
102nd Cavalry Group, Mechanized
38th and 102nd Cavalry Recon Squadrons attached
613th TD Battalion
186th, 196th, 200th, and 955th FA Battalions
254th Engineer Combat Battalion
187th FA Group (751st and 997th FA Battalions)
190th FA Group (62nd, 190th, 272nd, and 268th FA Battalions)
406th FA Group (76th, 941st, 953rd, and 987th FA Battalions)
1111th Engineer Combat Group (51st, 202nd, 291st, and 296th Engineer Combat Battalions)
1121st Engineer Combat Group (146th, 254th Engineer Combat Battalions)
1195th Engineer Combat Group
134th, 387th, 445th, 460th, 461st, 531st, 602nd, 639th, and 863rd AAA AW Battalions
1st Infantry Division "Big Red One"
BG Clift Andrus
16th, 18th and 26th Infantry Regiments
5th, 7th, 32nd, and 33rd FA Battalions
1st Engineer Combat Battalion
745th Tank Battalion
634th and 703rd TD Battalions
103rd AAA AW Battalion
2nd Infantry Division "Indianhead"
MG Walter M. Robertson
9th, 23rd, and 38th Infantry Regiments
12th, 15th, 37th, and 38th FA Battalions
2nd Engineer Combat Battalion
741st Tank Battalion
612th and 644th TD Battalions
462nd AAA AW Battalion
9th Infantry Division "Octofoil"
MG Louis A. Craig
39th, 47th, and 60th Infantry Regiments
26th, 34th, 60th, and 84th FA Battalions
15th Engineer Combat Battalion
38th Cavalry Recon Squadron
746th Tank Battalion
376th and 413th AAA AW Battalions
78th Infantry Division "Lightning"
MG Edwin P. Parker, Jr.
309th, 310th, and 311th Infantry Regiments
307th, 308th, 309th, and 903rd FA Battalions
303rd Engineer Combat Battalion
709th Tank Battalion
628th and 893rd TD Battalions
552nd AAA AW Battalion
CCR, 5th Armored Division (attached)
2nd Ranger Battalion (attached)
99th Infantry Division "Checkerboard"
MG Walter E. Lauer
393rd, 394th, and 395th Infantry Regiments
370th, 371st, 372nd, and 924th FA Battalions
324th Engineer Combat Battalion
801st TD Battalion
535th AAA AW Battalion
[edit] VII Corps
MG Joseph Lawton Collins
4th Cavalry Group, Mechanized
29th Infantry Regiment
Two French Light Infantry Battalions
509th Parachute Infantry Battalion
298th Engineer Combat Battalion
740th Tank Battalion
18th FA Group (188th, 666th, and 981st FA Battalions)
142nd FA Group (195th and 266th FA Battalions)
188th FA Group (172nd, 951st, and 980th FA Battalions)
342nd, 366th, 392nd, 1308th, and 1313th Engineer General Service Regiments
18th, 83rd, 87th, 183rd, 193rd, 957th, and 991st FA Battalions
2nd Armored Division "Hell on Wheels"
MG Ernest N. Harmon
41st Armored Infantry Regiment
66th and 67th Armored Regiments
14th, 78th, and 92nd Armored FA Battalions
17th Armored Engineer Battalion
82nd Recon Battalion
702nd TD Battalion
195th AAA AW Battalion
elements of 738th Tank Battalion (special - mine clearing) attached
3rd Armored Division "Spearhead"
MG Maurice Rose
36th Armored Infantry Regiment
32nd and 33rd Armored Regiments
54th, 67th, and 391st Armored FA Battalions
23rd Armored Engineer Battalion
83rd Recon Squadron
643rd and 703rd TD Battalion
486th AAA AW Battalion
83rd Infantry Division "Thunderbolt"/"Ohio"
MG Robert C. Macon
329th, 330th, and 331st Infantry Regiments
322nd, 323rd, 324th, and 908th FA Battalions
308th Engineer Combat Battalion
453rd AAA AW Battalion
774th Tank Battalion
772nd TD Battalion
84th Infantry Division "Railsplitters"
BG Alexander R. Bolling
333rd, 334th, and 335th Infantry Regiments
325th, 326th, 327th, and 909th FA Battalions
309th Engineer Combat Battalion
701st Tank Battalion, replaced by 771st Tank Battalion on 20 December
638th TD Battalion
557th AAA AW Battalion
[edit] XVIII Airborne Corps
MG Matthew B. Ridgway
14th Cavalry Group, Mechanized
254th, 275th, 400th, and 460th FA Battalions
79th FA Group (153rd, 551st, and 552nd FA Battalions)
179th FA Group (259th and 965th FA Battalions)
211th FA Group (240th and 264th FA Battalions)
401st FA Group (187th and 809th FA Battalions)
7th Armored Division "Lucky Seventh"
BG Robert W. Hasbrouck
CCA, CCB, and CCR
23rd, 38th, and 48th Armored Infantry Battalions
17th, 31st, and 40th Tank Battalions
434th, 440th, and 489th Armored FA Battalions
33rd Armored Engineer Battalion
87th Recon Squadron
814th TD Battalion
203rd AAA AW Battalion
820th TD Battalion attached 25–30 December
30th Infantry Division "Old Hickory"
MG Leland S. Hobbs
117th, 119th, and 120th Infantry Regiments
113th, 118th, 197th, and 230th FA Battalions
105th Engineer Combat Battalion
743rd Tank Battalion
823rd TD Battalion
517th Parachute Infantry Regiment attached
110th, 431st and 448th AAA AW Battalions
75th Infantry Division
MG Fay B. Prickett
289th, 290th, and 291st Infantry Regiments
730th, 897th, 898th, and 899th FA Battalions
275th Engineer Combat Battalion
750th Tank Battalion
629th and 772nd TD Battalions
440th AAA AW Battalion
82nd Airborne Division "All American"
MG James M. Gavin
504th, 505th, 507th, and 508th Parachute Infantry Regiments
325th Glider Infantry Regiment
319th and 320th Glider FA Battalions
376th and 456th Parachute FA Battalions
307th Airborne Engineer Battalion
80th AAA AW Battalion
551st Parachute Infantry Battalion
740th Tank Battalion attached 30 December – 11 January
628th TD Battalion attached 2–11 January
643rd TD Battalion attached 4–5 January
106th Infantry Division "Golden Lions"
MG Alan W. Jones
422nd, 423rd, and 424th Infantry Regiments
589th, 590th, 591st, and 592nd FA Battalions
81st Engineer Combat Battalion
820th TD Battalion
634th AAA AW Battalion 8–18 December
440th AAA AW battalion 8 December – 4 January
563rd AAA AW battalion 9–18 December
101st Airborne Division "Screaming Eagles"
BG Anthony C. McAuliffe (MG Maxwell D. Taylor)
501st, 502nd, and 506th Parachute Infantry Regiments
327th Glider Infantry Regiment
1st Battalion, 401st Glider Infantry
321st and 907th Glider FA Battalions
377th and 463rd Parachute FA Battalion
326th Parachute Engineer Battalion
705th TD Battalion
81st Airborne AAA AW Battalion
[edit] U.S. Third Army
LTG George S. Patton, Jr.
109th, 115th, 217th, and 777th AA Gun Battalions
456th, 465th, 550th, and 565th AAA AW Battalions
[edit] III Corps
MG John Millikin
6th Cavalry Group, Mechanized
179th, 274th, 776th, and 777th FA Battalions
193rd FA Group (177th, 253rd, 696th, 776th, and 949th FA Battalions)
203rd FA Group (278th, 742nd, 762nd FA Battalions)
183rd and 243rd Engineer Combat Battalions
1137th Engineer Combat Group (145th, 188th, and 249th Engineer Combat Battalions)
467th and 468th AAA AW Battalions
4th Armored Division
MG Hugh J. Gaffey
CCA, CCB, and CCR
10th, 51st, and 53rd Armored Infantry Battalions
8th, 35th, and 37th Tank Battalions
22nd, 66th, and 94th Armored FA Battalions
24th Armored Engineer Battalion
25th Cavalry Recon Squadron
489th AAA AW Battalion
704th TD Battalion
6th Armored Division "Super Sixth"
MG Robert W. Grow
CCA, CCB, and CCR
15th, 68th and 69th Tank Battalions
9th, 44th, and 50th Armored Infantry Battalions
128th, 212th, and 231st Armored FA Battalions
25th Armored Engineer Battalion
86th Cavalry Recon Squadron
691st TD Battalion
777th AAA AW Battalion
26th Infantry Division "Yankee"
MG Willard S. Paul
101st, 104th, and 328th Infantry Regiments
101st, 102nd, 180th, and 263rd FA Battalions
101st Engineer Combat Battalion
735th Tank Battalion
818th TD Battalion
390th AAA AW Battalion
35th Infantry Division "Santa Fe"
MG Paul W. Baade
134th, 137th, and 320th Infantry Regiments
127th, 161st, 216th, and 219th FA Battalions
60th Engineer Combat Battalion
654th TD Battalion
448th AAA AW Battalion
90th Infantry Division "Tough 'Ombres"
MG James A. Van Fleet
357th, 358th, and 359th Infantry Regiments
343rd, 344th, 345th, and 915th FA Battalions
315th Engineer Combat Battalion
773rd TD Battalion
774th TD Battalion attached 21 December – 6 January
537th AAA AW Battalion
[edit] VIII Corps
MG Troy H. Middleton
687th FA Battalion
174th FA Group (965th, 969th, and 700th FA Battalions)
333rd FA Group (333rd and 771st FA Battalions)
402nd FA Group (559th, 561st, and 740th FA Battalions)
422nd FA Group (81st and 174th FA Battalions)
178th and 249th Engineer Combat Battalions
1102nd Engineer Group (341st Engineer General Service Regiment)
1107th Engineer Combat Group (159th, 168th, and 202nd Engineer Combat Battalions)
1128th Engineer Combat Group (35th, 44th, and 202nd Engineer Combat Battalions)
French Light Infantry (six Light Infantry Battalions from Metz region)
467th, 635th, 778th AAA AW Battalions
9th Armored Division "Phantom"
MG John W. Leonard
CCA, CCB, and CCR
27th, 52nd, and 60th Armored Infantry Battalions
2nd, 14th, and 19th Tank Battalions
3rd, 16th, and 73rd Armored FA Battalions
9th Armored Engineer Battalion
89th Cavalry Squadron
811th TD Battalion
482nd AAA AW Battalion
11th Armored Division "Thunderbolt"
BG Charles S. Kilburn
CCA, CCB, and CCR
21st, 55th, and 63rd Armored Infantry Battalions
22nd, 41st, and 42nd Tank Battalions
490th, 491st, and 492nd Armored FA Battalions
56th Armored Engineer Battalion
602nd TD Battalion
41st Cavalry Squadron
575th AAA AW Battalion
17th Airborne Division "Golden Talons"
MG William M. Miley
507th and 513th Parachute Infantry Regiments
193rd and 194th Glider Infantry Regiments
680th and 681st Glider FA Battalions
466th Parachute FA Battalion
139th Airborne Engineer Battalion
155th Airborne AAA AW Battalion
28th Infantry Division "Keystone"
MG Norman D. Cota
109th, 110th, and 112th Infantry Regiments
107th, 108th, 109th, and 229th FA Battalions
103rd Engineer Combat Battalion
707th Tank Battalion
602nd TD Battalion
630th TD Battalion
447th AAA AW Battalion
87th Infantry Division "Golden Acorn"
BG Frank L. Culin, Jr.
345th, 346th, and 347th Infantry Regiments
334th, 335th, 336th, 912th FA Battalions
312th Engineer Combat Battalion
761st Tank Battalion
549th AAA AW Battalion
610th TD battalion 14–22 December
691st TD battalion 22–24 December and 8–26 January
704th TD battalion 17–19 December
[edit] XII Corps
MG Manton S. Eddy
2nd Cavalry Group, Mechanized
161st, 244th, 277th, 334th, 336th, and 736th FA Battalions
177th FA group 215th, 255th, and 775th FA Battalions
182nd FA group 802nd, 945th, and 974th FA Battalions
183rd FA group 695th and 776th FA Battalions
404th FA group 273rd, 512th, and 752nd FA Battalions
1303rd Engineer Service Regiment
4th Infantry Division "Ivy"
MG Raymond O. Barton
8th, 12th, and 22nd Infantry Regiments
20th, 29th, 42nd, and 44th FA Battalions
4th Engineer Combat Battalion
70th Tank Battalion
802nd and 803rd TD Battalions
377th AAA AW Battalions
5th Infantry Division "Red Diamond"
MG Stafford L. Irwin
2nd, 10th, and 11th Infantry Regiments
19th, 21st, 46th, and 50th FA Battalions
7th Engineer Combat Battalion
737th Tank Battalion
654th TD Battalion, 22–25 December
803rd TD Battalion, from 25 December
807th TD Battalion, 17–21 December
818th TD Battalion, 13 July – 20 December
449th AAA AW Battalion
10th Armored Division "Tiger"
MG William H.H. Morris, Jr.
CCA, CCB, and CCR
20th, 54th, and 61st Armored Infantry Battalions
3rd, 11th, and 21st Tank Battalions
419th, 420th, and 423rd Armored FA Battalions
609th TD Battalion
55th Armored Engineer Battalion
90th Cavalry Recon Squadron
796th AAA AW Battalion
80th Infantry Division "Blue Ridge"
MG Horace L. McBride
317th, 318th, and 319th Infantry Regiments
313th, 314th, 315th, and 905th FA Battalions
305th Engineer Combat Battalion
702nd Tank Battalion
610th TD Battalion 23 November – 6 December and 21 December – 28 January
808th TD Battalion 25 September – 21 December
633rd AAA AW Battalion
[edit] 21st Army Group
Field Marshal Sir Bernard L. Montgomery
[edit] XXX Corps
LTG Brian G. Horrocks
2nd Household Cavalry Regiment
11th Hussars
73rd Antitank Regiment, Royal Artillery
4th and 5th Regiments, Royal Horse Artillery
7th, 64th, and 84th Medium Regiments, Royal Artillery
27th Light AA Regiment, Royal Artillery
6th Airborne Division
MG Eric L. Bols
3rd Parachute Brigade
8th and 9th battalions, The Parachute Regiment, 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion
4th Parachute Brigade
7th, 12th, and 13th Battalions, The Parachute Regiment
6th Airlanding Brigade
12th Battalion, Devonshire Regiment, 2nd Battalion, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry, and 1st Battalion, Royal Ulster Rifles
53rd Light Regiment, Royal Artillery
3rd and 4th Airlanding Anti Tank Battalions, Royal Artillery
6th Airborne Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps
249th Airborne Field Company Royal Engineers
3rd, 591st Parachute Squadrons Royal Engineers
3rd, 9th Airborne Squadrons Royal Engineers
286th Airborne Field Park Company Royal Engineers
6th Airborne Divisional Signals Company Royal Signals
22nd Independent Parachute Company Army Air Corps
51st (Highland) Infantry Division
MG T.G. Rennie
152nd Infantry Brigade
2nd Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders
5th Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders
5th Battalion, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders
153rd Infantry Brigade
5th Battalion, Black Watch
1st Battalion, Gordon Highlanders
5/7th Battalion, Gordon Highlanders
154th Infantry Brigade
1st Battalion, Black Watch
7th Battalion, Black Watch
7th Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
126th, 127th, and 128th Field Regiments, Royal Artillery
2nd Derby Yeomanry
61st Antitank Regiment, Royal Artillery
40th Light AA Regiment, Royal Artillery
274th, 275th, and 276th Field Companies Royal Engineers
239th Field Park Company Royal Engineers
16th Bridging Platoon Royal Engineers
51st Divisional Signals Company Royal Signals
1/7 Machine Gun Battalion Middlesex Regiment
53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division
MG R.K. Ross
71st Infantry Brigade
1st Battalion, Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry
1st Battalion, Highland Light Infantry
4th Battalion, Royal Welch Fusiliers
158th Infantry Brigade
7th Battalion, Royal Welch Fusiliers
1/5th Battalion, Welch Regiment
1st Battalion, The East Lancashire Regiment
160th Infantry Brigade
2nd Battalion, Monmouthshire Regiment
1/5th Battalion, Welch Regiment
6th Battalion, Royal Welch Fusiliers
81st, 83rd, and 133rd Field Regiments, Royal Artillery
53rd Recce Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps
71st Antitank Regiment, Royal Artillery
25th Light AA Regiment, Royal Artillery
244th, 282nd, and 555th Field Companies Royal Engineers
285th Field Park Company Royal Engineers
22nd Bridging Platoon Royal Engineers
53rd Divisional Signals Company Royal Signals
29th Armoured Brigade
BG C.B.C Harvey
23rd Hussars
3rd Royal Tank Regiment
2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry
8th Rifle Brigade
33rd Armoured Brigade
BG H.B. Scott
144th Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps
1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry
1st East Riding Yeomanry
34th Army Tank Brigade
BG W.S. Clarke
9th Royal Tank Regiment
107th Regiment, 147th Royal Armoured Corps
[edit] Corps Reserve
Guards Armoured Division
MG Allan Henry Shafto Adair
5th Guards Armoured Brigade
2nd Battalion, Grenadier Guards
1st Battalion, Coldstream Guards
2nd Battalion, Irish Guards
1st Battalion, Grenadier Guards (Mechanized)
32nd Guards Brigade
5th Battalion, Coldstream Guards
3rd Battalion, Irish Guards
1st Battalion, Welsh Guards
2nd Battalion, Welsh Guards (Recce)
14th Field Company, Royal Engineers
615th Field Company, Royal Engineers
53rd Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
153rd Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
21st Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery
94th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, Royal Artillery
43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division
MG G. Thomas
129th Infantry Brigade
4th Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry
4th Battalion, Wiltshire Regiment
5th Battalion, Wiltshire Regiment
130th Infantry Brigade
7th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment
4th Battalion, Dorsetshire Regiment
5th Battalion, Dorsetshire Regiment
214th Infantry Brigade
7th Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry
1st Battalion, Worcestershire Regiment
5th Battalion, Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry
8th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment (Vickers Machine Gunners)
43rd Reconnaissance Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps
94th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
112th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
179th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
59th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery
13th Bridging Platoon, Royal Engineers
204th Field Company, Royal Engineers
207th Field Park Company, Royal Engineers (from Bath, Somerset).
260th Field Company, Royal Engineers (from Chippenham, Wiltshire).
553rd Field Company, Royal Engineers
54th Company, RASC
504th Company, RASC
505th Company, RASC
506th Divisional Company, RASC
110th Light Anti Aircraft Regiment, Royal Artillery
50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division
MG Douglas Alexander Graham
69th Infantry Brigade
5th Battalion, The East Yorkshire Regiment
6th Battalion, The Green Howards
7th Battalion, The Green Howards
151st Infantry Brigade
6th Battalion, The Durham Light Infantry
8th Battalion, The Durham Light Infantry
9th Battalion, The Durham Light Infantry
231st Infantry Brigade
1st Battalion, The Hampshire Regiment
1st Battalion, The Dorsetshire Regiment
1st/7th Battalion, The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)
2nd Battalion, The Cheshire Regiment
74th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
90th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
124th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
102nd Anti-Tank Regiment (The Northumberland Hussars), Royal Artillery
25th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, Royal Artillery
233rd Field Company, Royal Engineers
501st Field Company, Royal Engineers
505th Field Company, Royal Engineers
235th Field Park Company, Royal Engineers
[edit] Air Support
[edit] U.S. Army Air Forces
U.S. Strategic Air Forces in Europe Gen Carl Spaatz
[edit] U.S. Eighth Air Force (Strategic)
LTG James H. Doolittle
[edit] U.S. Ninth Air Force
LTG Hoyt S. Vandenberg
IX Bombardment Division
MG Samuel E. Anderson
IX Troop Carrier Command
MG Paul L. Williams
IX Tactical Air Command (supporting First Army)
MG Elwood R. Quesada
XIX Tactical Air Command (supporting Third Army)
XXIX Tactical Air Command (supporting Ninth Army)
[edit] Royal Air Force
Bomber Command
Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur T. Harris
Fighter Command
Air Marshal Sir Roderic M. Hill
Second Tactical Air Force
Air Marshal Sir Arthur Coningham

[Kyler]

I'll throw my hat in to this ring.

Are American historians biased in the interpretation of the America's participation politically, personally, and productivity wise?
Yes for the most part in my opinion. This doesn't say that other countries authors are not as well.

All historians are biased in some way or another. There is no such thing as an unbiased historian or person. They don't exist. My best and favorite History Professor in college always told us that when writing a paper we need to take the bias of the author into affect when making conclusions from their work. If two authors have divergent points of view, both with good solid sources then the truth is probably in the middle somewhere. If an argument or conclusion is supported by multiple good quality sources and the other is not, then it is obvious which point of view to support. Though remember every so often new evidence is discovered that can change conventional wisdom about a topic. So always be open minded to other points of view on history.

Though many people don't broadened their scope of sources. Many American's when reading history don't pickup books written about a battle from the other side. Since World War 2 was fought by many nations, there are multiple stories about the same event. If either from American, German, British, Russian, or the Japanese. I am a aviation buff, I have dozens of books about aircraft. When I want a book about say the MiG-21, an American author who probably only has access to American sources is probably not going to be the most reliable author on that aircraft, but its instead a Russian author who has access to much more information is a better source.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Kyler;

All historians are biased in some way or another. There is no such thing as an unbiased historian or person. They don't exist. My best and favorite History Professor in college always told us that when writing a paper we need to take the bias of the author into affect when making conclusions from their work. If two authors have divergent points of view, both with good solid sources then the truth is probably in the middle somewhere. If an argument or conclusion is supported by multiple good quality sources and the other is not, then it is obvious which point of view to support. Though remember every so often new evidence is discovered that can change conventional wisdom about a topic. So always be open minded to other points of view on history.

I agree here and it´s why it is important to read new research on such events. The House and Glantz account of Kursk is a good example which helps a lot because:
1. The contenders were non American.
2. The authors are American
3. Both, Germans and Russians were, each at their time, enemies and/or allies of the US (they exchange positions)

So, the book is written with emphasis in the Russian point of view which is very interesting.

There are other books, revisionist in their scope, that are very enjoyable but we must be cautious because of the reasons exposed by Kyler: Shattered Sword is an incredible piece of work and gives you a new perspective of the Midway Battle in a way that conventional accounts seemed "small" in comparison. However you can find some biased elements in it that, if you are aware of them, do not affect the criteria construction. Other book which is very interesting but needs a bit of caution is Mosier´s book on WWI.

Some thoughts, only.

[mkenny]

Ambrosian Syndrome again:

A)I have never read an Ambrose book.

If you want to compare the breadth of our respective 'reading' in this area then I am up for it.
How many volumes have you read and over what period? I have been doing this for 40 years of serious book collection and my references run into the several thousand. Are you saying you have done more?
I note your tendency to walk away from a thread when your fabrications are challenged. You did this when asked to back up your claim Monty refused to 'help out' during the Bulge. Are you going to do it again?



b) I am not an American.
I have told you this several times but you blindly plough on with your warped view that anyone who does not bow down your 'magnificent' German Army is biased. The truth is you are 'biased' and your repeated posting on the superiority of everything German give the game away.

the mentioned units were not all concentrated at Bastogne, which was what I was refering to in my initial statement, but all around the Ardennes Offensive area. Some of them were never even near Bastogne at all, including the spearhead of the Leibstandarte which was Peiper´s unfamous unit.

As I started the list with 'Normandy' then you can take it as read that I already know the difference between Normandy and Bastogne.

The reference made it clear that this group, even being the spearhead of a so called "strategic" offensive was undermanned. 4,800 men is hardly a match for the full manned US armoured divisions in the theater of operations.

There is your bias. You take one small German Unit and assume it fought a full US armoured Division.
Perhaps you did not realise that at the point of the initial penetration the Germans seriously outnumbered the US Forces?

Ardennes Offensive manpower:

Allies: 800,000
Germans: 500,000

Perhaps you could get the numbers for the total of the German Forces and the US Forces they attacked in the first week?
Maybe Wiki could help you out again?

There was never, even locally, the required superiority an attacker needs to succeed. The plan, as all late Hitler´s plans, was destined to fail from it´s birth.

It was all Hitlers fault. Blame it all on him. The usual excuses from the usual suspects.

But, still, the misinformation and misguidance is patent when it is stated that the whole of the undermanned German forces were concentrated around Bastonge when it was not the case: only some units were, such as the Hofenstaufen´s ones.

Oh I know about misinformation. Your post positively groan under it.

[Karl Heidenreich]

mkenny:

There is your bias. You take one small German Unit and assume it fought a full US armoured Division.
Perhaps you did not realise that at the point of the initial penetration the Germans seriously outnumbered the US Forces?

If you read carefully I never stated that Peiper´s group fought against a complete US Division. I made the comparison in which I say that, in raw numbers, that group, a spearhead, was hardly a match, numerically, to a US Division. Re read it please.

A)I have never read an Ambrose book.

If you want to compare the breadth of our respective 'reading' in this area then I am up for it.
How many volumes have you read and over what period? I have been doing this for 40 years of serious book collection and my references run into the several thousand. Are you saying you have done more?
I note your tendency to walk away from a thread when your fabrications are challenged. You did this when asked to back up your claim Monty refused to 'help out' during the Bulge. Are you going to do it again?

I never said nor imply I read more than you. Maybe of the posters I´m the one that can read less because the nature of my work keep far from home and my books. But I do have a pretty descent amount of reference books. Still I admitt I need more but the interest goes to battleships and not tanks.

As I started the list with 'Normandy' then you can take it as read that I already know the difference between Normandy and Bastogne.

That´s why I posted the complete order of battle.

Perhaps you could get the numbers for the total of the German Forces and the US Forces they attacked in the first week?
Maybe Wiki could help you out again?

I have never undestood why some guys, when challenged, get agressive and fill their comments with sarcasm. But then, did it really matter? Of course in the first hours or days of the Ardennes Offensive the Germans mustered more power than the Allies. It was because they were attacking and, by doing so, having a slight local superiority. The offensive lacked, from the very begining of enough power and resources to succeed, anyway. What could have been achieved in those first moments was lost fast.

It was all Hitlers fault. Blame it all on him. The usual excuses from the usual suspects.

In several threads, including this one, I emphazise precisely this aspect. Everybody blamed Hitler for everything, people like Guderian or the same Manstein. Was it real? Don´t think so.

But on the other hand you cannot judge the Ardennes Offensive as a coup of a genius. It was doomed because of lack of enough resources and a considerable numerical inferiority in comparison to the defenders as well as no aerial supremacy. This was Hitler´s fault.

Oh I know about misinformation. Your post positively groan under it.

Don´t see the purpose of being offensive. If your knowledge overwhelms mine, which I think is correct, then there is no need of it. Now: let´s get back to the issue at hand in which your basic assumption of German crack units fighting in the West were in the same condition of the summer of 1942 or 1943 in the East, which is clearly not the case. Those German "crack" units were undermanned and under equipped by 1944 and specially during the winter of the Ardennes offensive. That was the point.

[VeenenbergR]

Karl, why do those guys never agree with your arguments, while I always easily understand your points of view.
It is you against the others...... like Germany against the rest of the major powers.....
Is the US today friendly and understanding towards Germany? Are they real allies? according to Hollywood clearly not. Germans are always portrayed as loosers..
The same question about the Russians but then the opposite: are they still enemies? Which proof is there that the Russians have sympathy for Germany? Is Kaliningrad returned to their former owners? Nope.
Why is it that Germany after pleading guilty against itself for 65 years now, frantically rebuilding all of Germany with a kind of self-hatred (= modern) architecture, recontructing only a handfull of historic buildings (and even then with modern Foster additions intentionally leaving away the quadriga's, statues..) with NO single official commemmoration to their own gigantic losses of 7 million+ fallen (most soldiers probably murdered or shot after surrendering) and (still) missing......even after a 60 years still has no real friends in the world? They were noteven invited at D-day and think of the 75.000 fallen young boys there for their fatherland......most of them mislead by propaganda.....

[alecsandros]

Karl, why do those guys never agree with your arguments, while I always easily understand your points of view.
It is you against the others...... like Germany against the rest of the major powers.....
Is the US today friendly and understanding towards Germany? Are they real allies? according to Hollywood clearly not. Germans are always portrayed as loosers..
The same question about the Russians but then the opposite: are they still enemies? Which proof is there that the Russians have sympathy for Germany? Is Kaliningrad returned to their former owners? Nope.
Why is it that Germany after pleading guilty against itself for 65 years now, frantically rebuilding all of Germany with a kind of self-hatred (= modern) architecture, recontructing only a handfull of historic buildings (and even then with modern Foster additions intentionally leaving away the quadriga's, statues..) with NO single official commemmoration to their own gigantic losses of 7 million+ fallen (most soldiers probably murdered or shot after surrendering) and (still) missing......even after a 60 years still has no real friends in the world? They were noteven invited at D-day and think of the 75.000 fallen young boys there for their fatherland......most of them mislead by propaganda.....

This is a far to big and incendiary topic to be discussed on an internet forum

[mkenny]

gigantic losses of 7 million+ fallen (most soldiers probably murdered or shot after surrendering)

Can we please have the evidence that 'most' German POW's were 'murdered. Something solid and not just your opinion.