HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
Hi, all.
Okay, so as we're in the Hypothetical section.
Let's say it's 1863 and Great Britain goes to war with, I dunno, France for a change*, or we take a page from all those alternative-history novels and Britain is fighting with the Confederate States.
The Royal Navy sends her war deterrent of the day, HMS Warrior and Black Prince. They clear for action and load their molten iron shells with an unhealthy level or xenophobic fetishism.
Are Warrior and Black Prince sinking everything they fight? Are they going toe-to-toe with other ironclads that can compete as peers, or are Warrior and Black Prince already obsolete and a victim of their own success as naval technology was moving by the day?
* This does seems to be the national sport for Britain.
Okay, so as we're in the Hypothetical section.
Let's say it's 1863 and Great Britain goes to war with, I dunno, France for a change*, or we take a page from all those alternative-history novels and Britain is fighting with the Confederate States.
The Royal Navy sends her war deterrent of the day, HMS Warrior and Black Prince. They clear for action and load their molten iron shells with an unhealthy level or xenophobic fetishism.
Are Warrior and Black Prince sinking everything they fight? Are they going toe-to-toe with other ironclads that can compete as peers, or are Warrior and Black Prince already obsolete and a victim of their own success as naval technology was moving by the day?
* This does seems to be the national sport for Britain.
I will ask all the questions on all things floaty.
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Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
No one had anything equivalent to Warrior.
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Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
Difficult to say. The few engagements of the era (Hampton Roads for instance) were indecisive. Neither shell nor solid shot had it easy penetrating the 4 in wrought iron armour of the day. For sure wooden ship were out of the question.
Regards
Regards
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Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
None of the ACW ironclads were seagoing ships. They were all coastal and riverine monitors.
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Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
Steve Crandell wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 8:28 pm None of the ACW ironclads were seagoing ships. They were all coastal and riverine monitors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Miantonomoh_(1863)
Also see Onandaga and Canonicus.
Not saying that it would have represented a comfortable cruise, but several sea voyages of respectable distance were accomplished.
FWIW
Byron
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Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
True, except if the CSS Stonewall had entered service.Steve Crandell wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 8:28 pm None of the ACW ironclads were seagoing ships. They were all coastal and riverine monitors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... C5%8Dtetsu
Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
If Britian happened by chance to go to war with France, then wouldn’t the match-up be between the British Warrior and Black Prince versus the French Glorie and Invincible? IIRC, weren’t the former built in response to the latter?
Kind regards, Michael L.
Kind regards, Michael L.
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Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
I think so. Anyway, it would be difficult to disable or sink either.
Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
I tend to agree. They would likely blow away each other's masts and top deck fittings, but not penetrate each other's hulls.
But what about after 1868? When the Glorie's armament changed to the following:
6 × 240 mm (9.4 in) Mle 1864 Breech-loading guns.
2 × 192 mm (7.6 in) Mle 1866 Breech-loading guns.
But what about after 1868? When the Glorie's armament changed to the following:
6 × 240 mm (9.4 in) Mle 1864 Breech-loading guns.
2 × 192 mm (7.6 in) Mle 1866 Breech-loading guns.
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Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
Well, there were in use elongated projectiles during the American Civil War, albeit muzzle loading. In their armour piercing flavor they were called "bolt". I am not sure they were much better than the spherical shot.Michael L wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:53 am I tend to agree. They would likely blow away each other's masts and top deck fittings, but not penetrate each other's hulls.
But what about after 1868? When the Glorie's armament changed to the following:
6 × 240 mm (9.4 in) Mle 1864 Breech-loading guns.
2 × 192 mm (7.6 in) Mle 1866 Breech-loading guns.
Anyway, all this is described in a book available in google, Experiments with Naval Ordnance, H.M.S. "Excellent." 1866. HMS Excellent was a shore establishment of the RN tasked with the testing and experimentation of artillery.
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id ... pg=GBS.PP1
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Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
Interesting.
In September , 1862 , a 70 - pr . Whitworth shell , fired with a 13 lb. charge , penetrated the plate of the " Warrior " target , and burst in the backing , and a 150 - pr . shell , fired with a 27 lb. charge , penetrated the target . The bursters of the shells weighed 24 and 5 lbs . respectively . Many experiments have taken place since with shell made in the manner proposed by Mr. Whitworth and Sir W. Armstrong .
In September , 1862 , a 70 - pr . Whitworth shell , fired with a 13 lb. charge , penetrated the plate of the " Warrior " target , and burst in the backing , and a 150 - pr . shell , fired with a 27 lb. charge , penetrated the target . The bursters of the shells weighed 24 and 5 lbs . respectively . Many experiments have taken place since with shell made in the manner proposed by Mr. Whitworth and Sir W. Armstrong .
Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
The reference 'Naval Experiments with Naval Ordnance, HMS Excellent, 1866' does provide a lot of detail.
However, it does not cover variables such as shots fired which hit plate joints and the effect of multiple hits in the same region.
Naval encounters were rarely determined by a single shot.
Nonetheless, my reading of the data suggests that although in their infancy, elongated shot and steel shell were showing promise (pages 158/9).
However, it does not cover variables such as shots fired which hit plate joints and the effect of multiple hits in the same region.
Naval encounters were rarely determined by a single shot.
Nonetheless, my reading of the data suggests that although in their infancy, elongated shot and steel shell were showing promise (pages 158/9).
Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
That is interesting. I'm currently reading about HMS Excellent in a different book. Never heard of Excellent until two days ago.marcelo_malara wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 3:29 am Interesting.
In September , 1862 , a 70 - pr . Whitworth shell , fired with a 13 lb. charge , penetrated the plate of the " Warrior " target , and burst in the backing , and a 150 - pr . shell , fired with a 27 lb. charge , penetrated the target . The bursters of the shells weighed 24 and 5 lbs . respectively . Many experiments have taken place since with shell made in the manner proposed by Mr. Whitworth and Sir W. Armstrong .
What is a pr shell?
Additional, I wonder how molten iron shells would have fared in anger. They sound particularly unsporting.
I will ask all the questions on all things floaty.
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Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
Hi!AThompson wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:53 amThat is interesting. I'm currently reading about HMS Excellent in a different book. Never heard of Excellent until two days ago.marcelo_malara wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 3:29 am Interesting.
In September , 1862 , a 70 - pr . Whitworth shell , fired with a 13 lb. charge , penetrated the plate of the " Warrior " target , and burst in the backing , and a 150 - pr . shell , fired with a 27 lb. charge , penetrated the target . The bursters of the shells weighed 24 and 5 lbs . respectively . Many experiments have taken place since with shell made in the manner proposed by Mr. Whitworth and Sir W. Armstrong .
What is a pr shell?
Additional, I wonder how molten iron shells would have fared in anger. They sound particularly unsporting.
pr = pounder
For the molten iron shell. For sure it was dreadful for a wooden ship, not so much for an iron one, but it was also risky for the firing ship, any spill of the melt iron (not to mention the time and coal needed to do it) was a possible fire. In my knowledge it was more usually used from coastal fortress.
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Re: HMS Warrior and Black Prince Come out to Play
For sure. An elongated shell has higher sectional density (weight of the shell / shell´s front area) that a round shot, which is far better for penetration. And steel would assure that the shell would not break on impact.Michael L wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:19 am The reference 'Naval Experiments with Naval Ordnance, HMS Excellent, 1866' does provide a lot of detail.
However, it does not cover variables such as shots fired which hit plate joints and the effect of multiple hits in the same region.
Naval encounters were rarely determined by a single shot.
Nonetheless, my reading of the data suggests that although in their infancy, elongated shot and steel shell were showing promise (pages 158/9).
I think that the last one is the reason why American Civil War bolts, made at best of wrought iron (there was still not steel in US), did not replace completely the heavy smooth bores, even a 15" monster Rodman was designed to defeat the armour of the Confederates ironclads.