Hood gets a proper refit - now what?

[paulcadogan]

The key point seems that the bridge officers couldn't view both ships together with binoculars because they were to far apart. With respect to Hoods' spotting top report quoted I note the present tense used which suggests to me it was made after Hood opened fire - if so at what point did the spotting top make the identification, at that point or before, and if before why was no report made?

Briggs describes this report after fire was opened and follows with: "Our shells had been falling near the Prinz Eugen..." He reports this before he describes Bismarck opening fire.

Hood's optical range finder operators would have been equally unable to see both German ships. Moreso, already focussed on PE, they would not have been able to compare the size of the gun flashes.

But back to the refitted Hood. In this configuration, had events unfolded initially as in reality, there would have been no spotting top hit - the tower bridge DCT being lower. The shell would have passed harmlessly overhead. The boat deck hit from Prinz Eugen would have been in the vicinity of her catapult deck instead causing local nuisance damage, no exploding UP or 4-inch ready use ammo, or major fire.

[RF]

But back to the refitted Hood. In this configuration, had events unfolded initially as in reality, there would have been no spotting top hit - the tower bridge DCT being lower. The shell would have passed harmlessly overhead. The boat deck hit from Prinz Eugen would have been in the vicinity of her catapult deck instead causing local nuisance damage, no exploding UP or 4-inch ready use ammo, or major fire.

In this case we are almost reaching the point where POW, with its dodgy guns, is somewhat surplus to requirements!

It would be interesting to war game this scenario to see how matters develop, particulary with how good Hoods' shooting turns out to be, especially as Hood opened fire before Bismarck.....

Another thought occurs to me as well. If Hoods' armour protection and equipment is that much better, does Holland actually need to charge in at an angle where half the guns are unsighted? Would he fight a genuine long range action as favoured by the US Navy, or would he still have to get in close in case Bismarck tries to turn away to starboard under cover of smoke?

[paulcadogan]

Another thought occurs to me as well. If Hoods' armour protection and equipment is that much better, does Holland actually need to charge in at an angle where half the guns are unsighted? Would he fight a genuine long range action as favoured by the US Navy, or would he still have to get in close in case Bismarck tries to turn away to starboard under cover of smoke?

I already made that point earlier - if there was more confidence in Hood's horizontal protection, there would have been no perceived urgency for a rapid closing of the range with the A-arcs closed. The only caveat is that an end on approach was favoured by Tovey. Based on the situation though, steady closing at 260 deg (rather than 280 - 300- 280- 260, playing havoc with the rate calculations!) with the A-arcs open might very well have been chosen by Holland - similar to Whitworth's initial approach with Renown to the twins off Stromvaer.

The combined effect of both ships firing broadsides at Bismarck might have shaken Lutjen's nerve very quickly, especially if Bismarck started taking hits early. The result could have been a Jutlandesque "Gefetchtkehrtwendung nach steurbord!" and a running fight back through the DS. Then if Hood's speed had been restored to over 30 knots....

Note that I am not saying that a rebuilt Hood could stand up to a one on one slogging match versus Bismarck as well as Bismarck could versus her. But I believe the DS battle would have had a different outcome.

[RobertsonN]

The above analysis might have worked. However, while the analysis of both Offord and Okun showed that Hood's main belt + the protection behind it was safe with Bismarck 40 resp. 37 deg before the Hood's beam, both suggested it was vulnerable by 20 deg. Hence, my suggestion to increase the scarp from 2 in to 4 in (mach.) resp. 5 in (mag.). This might have made the Hood's overall vertical protection safe down to 30 deg. Plans of the Hood show the rear turrets could fire up to 60 deg forward of the beam.

[Thorsten Wahl]

The Loss of HMS Hood
A Re-Examination
by William J. Jurens
This article was originally published in Warship International No. 2, 1987

http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Hood_p1.htm

short comment it can not be excluded that penetration of 38 cm Psgr was somwhat better as analysis show, as the german penetration data were based on 1940 armor.

[alecsandros]

... And had better performance against armor at various obliquities than the table suggests

[RobertsonN]

Agreed. Neither Offord nor Okun IIRC factored in the quality factor for the Hood's main armor relative to current (1940 era) armor. Offord was asked if Hood's armor might have deteriorated due to age. He replied this was very unlikely because the armor was bolted to the hull and so was not subject to the stresses of structurally worked material.
The above consideration, that Hood's 12 in vertical protection was now more vulnerable, because of the increase in vertical penetration of a German 15 in shell of something like 33% compared to the First War, is all the more reason to make the scarp 4 in/5 in NC. Replacing the belt armor was very likely ruled out on armor capacity and cost grounds: all of the rebuilt QEs and Renown still retained their WW1 era belts.

[paul.mercer]

Scenario is this - as dark as the clouds of war may have appeared in the days leading to WWII, instead of pulling HMS Renown in for the exhaustive refit she got in 1936, the Brits take a different route and drydock HMS Hood instead.

They expend the same amount of material, effort and energy on Hood, instead of Renown. This isn't intended to re-hash the many valid reasons the Brits couldn't, or were loathe to have Hood unavailable at the time. The point of this is - that they DO roll the dice.
Instead of keeping her at sea, the Admiralty decides to address Hood's shortcomings. To properly update Hood extensively, instead of Renown, during that same time frame. Maybe Renown still gets a bit of minor spiffing up, but Hood is the one that goes under the knife for the kind of updating everyone generally agrees was sorely needed. Different armor, updated targeting and fire control, new superstructure/compartments to better handle punishment from naval gunfire of the era.

In the 1936 refit, Renown was changed a lot. She got the updated fire control, a mostly new superstructure, funnels, guns, masts, some added armor. I'm not saying this would have guaranteed a different outcome for Hood necessarily, but it certainly begs the question. I'm betting she doesn't sink at the Denmark Strait. Instead of blowing to bits in the first few minutes, I think Admiral Holland gets the turn to port accomplished that he had begun, brings Hood's rear turrets to bear, and lets fly with some 15'' salvos. If Prinz Eugen gets hit by one or two of these big shells, does Lutjens move to break off right away? An undamaged or slightly damaged Bismarck can still keep the wolves away from an injured Prinz. Besides Hood, Lutjens knows he still has Prince of Wales to contend with. Quirky turret problems or not, she's still not toothless. A damaged Hood may be retreating behind the stouter POW to lick her wounds, but she's still angrily shooting at the German ships.

I think Hood needs help, though; Holland sends Hood away, with an escort perhaps, but out of the fight. Transfers his flag to POW, and shadows the Germans until Tovey can get close or the Germans make good their escape, more likely.

Gentlemen,
I think if PE had got hit by some 15" shells she would be severely hurt not just injured, if not out of the fight altogether, I also think that Bismarck may well have been in trouble. Her main chance would be to damage Hood in such a way that she had to slow down and them use her superior speed to get away, leaving PE to her fate. Even with a damaged Hood and a PoW with partly defective guns there are still two large RN cruisers not far away and I think Lutjens would have no alternative but to make a run for it.

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
This subject brings to light another question (another what if!).
If Renown had all this refit as alpha3 suggests, what if she had been at Denmark Strait instead of Hood and assuming Admiral Holland in charge?
Renown had a very good record and an excellent crew as was proven when she took on the twins, now, assuming Holland adopts the same tactics and approaches Bismarck with her two front turrets able to fire (as did Hood) how would her modernised fire control have coped, do you think that she might have got in some early hits that might have changed the course of history, particularly as it seems that Hood's initial salvos were way off target?

[paulcadogan]

If Renown had all this refit as alpha3 suggests, what if she had been at Denmark Strait instead of Hood and assuming Admiral Holland in charge?Renown had a very good record and an excellent crew as was proven when she took on the twins, now, assuming Holland adopts the same tactics and approaches Bismarck with her two front turrets able to fire (as did Hood) how would her modernised fire control have coped, do you think that she might have got in some early hits that might have changed the course of history, particularly as it seems that Hood's initial salvos were way off target?

Paul,

I love Renown dearly but....

She was TERRIBLY vulnerable at all levels to Bismarck's shells, vertically, horizontally, turrets and barbettes - though I think the British considered her improved deck protection to be protective inside 24,000 yards but even that is questionable. This was why she was forbidden to engage Bismarck on the 26th when Adm. Somerville dutifully asked permission, unless Bismarck was already heavily engaged by KGV and/or Rodney. If Renown had been at Scapa instead of Hood, I believe Tovey would have been forced to put to sea in the KGV with Renown, leaving PoW and Repulse to follow as back up. If Hood's post-reconstruction protection would still have had vulnerabilities, Renown's was definitely a no-go.

Offensively, she had some decent firepower and modern FC. Off Norway in terrible conditions, without radar, she managed one very quick 15-inch and two 4.5-inch hits on Gneisenau at the outset, but did not connect again during the pursuit phase. At Spartivento, she straddled the Italian cruiser Bolzano at about 30,000 yards, but scored no hits. Maybe she might have connected in the DS, but if Bismarck chose to take her under fire, heaven help her!

[RF]

Gentlemen,
This subject brings to light another question (another what if!).
If Renown had all this refit as alpha3 suggests, what if she had been at Denmark Strait instead of Hood and assuming Admiral Holland in charge?
Renown had a very good record and an excellent crew as was proven when she took on the twins, now, assuming Holland adopts the same tactics and approaches Bismarck with her two front turrets able to fire (as did Hood) how would her modernised fire control have coped, do you think that she might have got in some early hits that might have changed the course of history, particularly as it seems that Hood's initial salvos were way off target?

The key thing here was that Holland fired first - Lutjens delayed opening fire. Therefore Renown has a chance to land damaging hits on Bismarck before the Bismarck finds her range. If those hits damage Bismarck's fire control then Renown has more time to cause further damage.

Also bear in mind that if Holland has Renown/POW why is there the compulsion to have Renown as flagship? Would Holland have had the option of transferring his flag to POW and thus put POW as lead ship and draw German fire from Renown?

[RF]

I think if PE had got hit by some 15" shells she would be severely hurt not just injured, if not out of the fight altogether, I also think that Bismarck may well have been in trouble. Her main chance would be to damage Hood in such a way that she had to slow down and them use her superior speed to get away, leaving PE to her fate.

In which case Hollands' intention that Prinz Eugen would be destroyed by Norfolk and Suffolk would come into play. Failing that Holland had six destroyers which could torpedo a limping Prinz Eugen....

[RNfanDan]

1. Hood gets a proper refit.

2. Hood gets sent to the Far East.

3. Hood gets sunk.

Same historical funnel, different order of flow.

[paulcadogan]

1. Hood gets a proper refit.2. Hood gets sent to the Far East.3. Hood gets sunk.Same historical funnel, different order of flow.

If a refitted Hood survives the DS and Bismarck is stopped or turned back, Hood would be retained with the Home Fleet, along with KGV & DoY to guard against further sorties by Bismarck (if she survives Rheinubung) and/or Tirpitz. REPULSE would still get sent to the Far East. Sorry Dan....the old girl still goes down..

[dunmunro]

I don't think that it is a given that if a rebuilt Hood or Renown would be sunk in place of Repulse. Either ship would have much more AA power and far superior UW protection and subdivision.