Ideal Rheinubung

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
lwd
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Re: Re:

Post by lwd »

Ramius wrote:...
2. In full coordination the Tirpitz + Lutzow, commanded by Lutjens, cross the Kiel Canal and steam at dusk the same evening the Bismarck and PE are at the Norwegian Fiord.
How is this going to be acomplished?
4. Tirpitz + Lutzow follow Bismarck + PE some ten to twenty miles behind. Norfolk and Suffolk find and follow Bismark and the Prinz while Tirpiz and Lutzow slide into the two cruiser's blind spot (that Bismarck actually took advantage while eluding the two cruisers after the Battle of the Denmarck Strait).
This presupposes they know that the British cruisers are there and how they are oriented and that they won't change orientation. You are assuming a very difficult move is trivial. Care to post some details as to exactly how Bismark did this by the way?
Bismarck turns around to port and the Prinz to starboard, and Tirpiz turns to starboard and Lutzow to port, the cruisers would U-turn trying to escape the attack and run into the Lonely Queen and Lutzow who were in their blind spot.
Why would they U-turn. I'd make a 90 degree turn in a case like this. And as soon as they do they spot the other two ships if they haven't already. Result is the Germans burn a bunch of fuel to no effect and waste time they don't have in the process.
5. At dawn the following day the Graf Zepplin and Peter Strasser (complete or not) do a reverse Channel Dash and sail through the Channel to France (to get aircraft and construction and training complete) while the entire Royal Navy has gone ape beacuse both Bismark and Tirpitz (and Lutzow and Prinz Eugen) are on the loose.
And almost assuredly get sunk in the process by British AC and light craft. Furthermore because these two ships are ready and available the British almost assuredly have more capital ships available in home waters. This means that the two British cruisers probably have help a lot closer they may even be able to lead the Germans to it.
6. At dawn the same day Hood + PoW intercept. As in History: Hood is blown sky high. PoW is alone now and is fighting Bismarck and Prinz when Tirpiz comes full speed from behind Bismarck and helps pummel the PoW into a floating pile of scrap metal.....
This scenario already made enough changes that if this encounter happens it won't happen the same way.
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RF
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Re: Ideal Rheinubung

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Only Italian ones - if they can get past Gibraltar and you want to use RM ships....
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Saltheart
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Re: Ideal Rheinubung

Post by Saltheart »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:While reading the thread in which the Japanese forgot about their interests in the Far East and come to help Raeder to fight the allies I began to think that, in order to change the Atlantic Theater outcome none of that is really necessary.
First thing to win is to shot Raeder and don´t let Lutjens get aboard Bismarck or anything that floats. Second, prepare a Rheinubung Operation which target is not to look for convoys and sunk humble transports but to produce chaos: real offensive thinking.
Look: If with only Bismarck and an 8" gun cruiser the British went amuk and had so many troubles, try to imagine the following:
1. Late July, early August 1941. Since May the U-Boats were recalled to replenish and reorganize in French ports.
2. A Northern Battlegroup is organized with Bismarck, Tirpitz as capital ships with PE and Hipper as escorts.
3. A Southern Battlegroup is prepared with Schanhorst and Gneisenau
4. At a given moment U-Boats and the two Battlegroups steam.

When that happens the British had to seal all the exits. If they had problems only with Bismarck, what can we expect? Pandemonium! Wherever the British run to the pursuit a U-Boat trap, the German capital ships hit and run, damaging surface units as cruisers, destroyers and the such, disabling the patrols the British had and by doing so choicing the moment to strike. If Bismarck and Tirpitz find Hood and Repulse, or Hood and PoW then the opportunities go in favour of the Germans. If Bismarck, Tirpitz, the Twins with PE and Hipper rendevouz and find KGV and Rodney it´s bye bye to the heavier units GB had in the Atlantic.
No need for Yamato.
It could have been done... And it didn´t need hindsight, just common sense.
Aircraft carriers. If I was the British Admiralty I'd use aircraft carriers to win. I'd leave Repuse and Renown in the south to hunt S and G and put an old slow battleship in some convoys so if S and G did reach one they'd be fought off anyway. And all the time with Repulse and Renown hunting as a pair they'd be looking for S and G.
Up north I'd deploy every aircraft carrier I had backed by KG5, POW and Hood. I'd deploy masses of cruisers and search aircraft to find the 4 German ships and keep contact with them. I'd actually commit endless relays of cruisers and aircraft constantly relieving each other to maintain that contact no matter what. I'd organise at sea refueling for my heavy units so they can follow the Germans until I had my attack force (minimum 2 more like 3 carriers) finally within range of the Germans.
We know from the strikes launched that a dozen torpedoe bombers at a time could get one or two hits on a battleship, I'd order that the cruisers be the target.
The German Hipper class heavy cruisers had nothing like the underwater protection of a battleship and one solid torpedoe hit would change their speed from 30 to 15. If I hit twice I'd probably sink it. the Germans can then go at 15 knots or abandon the heavy cruiser to be gobbled up. I'd launch a couple of strikes a day from each carrier, say 4 to 6 strikes a day total so maybe 4 to 6 hits a day on the enemy force. I'd cripple or sink cruisers and slow down battleships by accumulated damage. Then I'd adda couple of old battleships to the KG5, POW, Hood force and get to work.
In other words my carriers with their 100 mile range torpeoes beat the Germans 20 mile range big guns as long as I have patience, shadow the enemy, collect my airpower and then use it endlessly to wear the Germans down. Then I kill them off when I judge the time has arrived.
Fighting like that I'd see the 4 German ships puttting to sea as an opportunity for me.
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RF
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Re: Ideal Rheinubung

Post by RF »

Saltheart, I somewhat think the capabilities of carriers as the main strike weapon against the northern group here is overassumed. We need here co-ordinated carrier attacks (difficult unless the carriers are in company) and then there is the problem of German flack.
Using carriers would be essential, but not the only strike weapon.

One aspect you haven't considered is to go after the German supply ships, put British submarines into the break out areas and use Bomber Command to go after the German held port facilities. This would be in addition to the other RN moves.
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Saltheart
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Re: Ideal Rheinubung

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RF wrote:Saltheart, I somewhat think the capabilities of carriers as the main strike weapon against the northern group here is overassumed. We need here co-ordinated carrier attacks (difficult unless the carriers are in company) and then there is the problem of German flack.
Using carriers would be essential, but not the only strike weapon.

One aspect you haven't considered is to go after the German supply ships, put British submarines into the break out areas and use Bomber Command to go after the German held port facilities. This would be in addition to the other RN moves.
I most certainly mean't coordinated carrier attacks. That's why I said 2 or 3 carriers and using patience. Not doing anything till the airpower is amassed. And doing anything to keep contact all the while. I'd most certainly be thinking of one flight of planes leaves and the next 12 arrive. Each time I'd expect a torpedoe hit on something and I'd do it all several times a day.
If I have 100 mile strike range carriers and they don't all I have to have is patience, and a cruiser force to keep contact, and the Germans are simply targets.
German flak in 1941 was terrible, they'd have had the same inadequate protection that they actually did.

I agree with you that bombing ports is an option but I'd rather sink them at sea with carriers than damage them in port.
I don't know about subs, if I used them I'd concentrate them around Bergen and try and torpedoe the Germans when they come out after refueling.
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RF
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Re: Ideal Rheinubung

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I think the co-ordination of continous attacks together with a combined shadowing and attacking role is going to be more difficult in terms of both flight operations and carrier logistics you you seem to allow. I don't think that three carriers would be enough. And this is before you consider interuption to operations by sea conditions and storms. U-boats can also upset matters as well. German flak can't be completely discounted either.

My suggestion of bombing ports by Bomber Command wasn't specifically to sink the big ships (in this scenario they are at sea anyway) but to target supply and coastal escort vessels and to damage the port repair and service facilities. Again an indirect approach, and one approach of many, to this problem.
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Saltheart
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Re: Ideal Rheinubung

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RF wrote:I think the co-ordination of continous attacks together with a combined shadowing and attacking role is going to be more difficult in terms of both flight operations and carrier logistics you you seem to allow. I don't think that three carriers would be enough. And this is before you consider interuption to operations by sea conditions and storms. U-boats can also upset matters as well. German flak can't be completely discounted either.

My suggestion of bombing ports by Bomber Command wasn't specifically to sink the big ships (in this scenario they are at sea anyway) but to target supply and coastal escort vessels and to damage the port repair and service facilities. Again an indirect approach, and one approach of many, to this problem.
I think 3 carriers, even 2 as long as they're together like I invisaged, would be enough. They wouldn't be able to attack all the time, weather would be a factor I agree, but they could attack a lot. You can also rotate carriers for logistical needs. One leaves the force and another arrives.
Also remember a torpedoed cruiser is a disaster for the Germans as it slows them. If they're slowed they're easier to shadow and to bring up carriers against. Every time a battleship is hit it's also a problem. I don't think it would be long before they'd be headed for home and I'd have the carriers follow the whole way still launching a couple of attacks a day.
I'm sure some planes would be shot down but the Germans would be limping along nursing damaged cruisers and desperately wishing they hadn't cancelled Graf Zeppelin.
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Re: Ideal Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros »

Hello,
AA fire from the German ships may be a factor, as many planes would be damaged, and could not be re-used in subsequent attacks. IIRC, 6 of the 15 Swordfishes from Ark Royal were damaged by Bismarck's AA fire. 1 of them was considered a total loss on return to the carrier. 2 others were to damaged to be used in the next days. 3 were patched up, however.
Saltheart
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Re: Ideal Rheinubung

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alecsandros wrote:Hello,
AA fire from the German ships may be a factor, as many planes would be damaged, and could not be re-used in subsequent attacks. IIRC, 6 of the 15 Swordfishes from Ark Royal were damaged by Bismarck's AA fire. 1 of them was considered a total loss on return to the carrier. 2 others were to damaged to be used in the next days. 3 were patched up, however.
I've also heard quite a few planes were damaged so that's a good point but each British carrier had over 30 aircraft of which at least 20 could be used as torpedoe bombers. So if you have 3 carriers assigned to this job you'd have enough planes to get it done.
All it takes is marshalling the carriers in preperation and then making that all important cruiser or search plane contact. After that it's just about patience and maintaining contact for however many days of attacks it takes.
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RF
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Re: Ideal Rheinubung

Post by RF »

I'm not sure that your tactics Saltheart would yield quite the results you anticipate, so we shall have to agree to differ on this.

I might add that the Germans would regard the damaged cruisers as expendible and use such crippled targets as U-boat traps..... And if one or more carriers gets torpedoed.... Then in the eastern Atlantic there is Luftwaffe support in the form of the FW Condors as well.
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