The future of Europe

[RF]

Speak for yorself. I am not wasting anyone's time neither have I written this book, neither am I picking on the EU as it discredits itself and has no real legitimacy.

And as for the British House of Commons, yes I do expect it to represent the will of the people, as it is the people who elect and through out MP's. I may not like the political parties or what they stand for but I have a vote and use it. I can make representation to my MP on issues, which I do even though I have not voted for him. I do not regard national parliaments as a laughing matter. That is for people who do not want democracy or a genuine nation state.

[JtD]

Speak for yorself.

I spoke for myself. Should be obvious to those who read. For all the other blabla, k, have it your way. Just don't claim to know what I believe.

[RF]

......and since I can elect the MEP's it is a democracy just like any other national parliament.

For the record that is what you said and what I took issue with.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Well, RF, it seems that with the latest elections in Europe your position is clearly the one of the future: people already scared of a political correct union, economic debacle, the left in open retreat and the right getting stronger. Even in Holland the far right is getting tough and proper. Good for them! It was just about time that people begin to see the enemy in the crescent moon of islamic barbarism. We, naval buffs, must know from historical learning that the islamic hordes are western enemies since the Middle Ages: Lepanto is the clear example of what´s need to be done.

And it´s quite ironic this happening in Europe whilst in Cairo Mr. Osama, excuse me: Obama, simply surrender the western democratic ways to the eastern totalitarian religious ways. Obama (or Osama, your chose) if not a traitor it´s as naive as Kennedy in the sixties: to apeace these irrational terrorists will only encourage them to take over western society with their numerical superiority. As I see this I remember Maquiaveli´s maxim of not let disorder to be born in order to avoid war, because it´s not avoidable, it will only be delay in your disadvantage. And, even risking getting a kick for saying this: but it look to me a lot like Neville Chamberlain at Munich.

God help us all! At least in my country people are all turning to the right (well, Costa Rica people are much more educated than Venezuela´s, Bolivia´s and Ecuador´s people which vote for populist demagogues as Chavez, Morales and Correa).

[RF]

I wasn't really thinking of the ''far right'' as being the future of Europe any more than the European Union itself. Both these elements offer a denial of true democracy as I see it.

Now that the dust and fallout from the ''election'' is settling we can see that really little has changed. The true majority in this ''election'' are those who didn't vote, in the UK some two thirds of the electorate. In my book that should be enough to render this ''election'' null and void, as the non-voters - whether out of apathy or hostility to the EU - have no say, no representation. They should be represented, under the proportional representation system used in these ''elections'' by two thirds of the British seats in the ''parliament'' being empty. Immediately you can see the EU ''parliament'' has no legitimacy, no authority, no right to rule in the UK or anywhere else.
Of those who voted in the UK, nearly three and a half million voters voted for parties wanting British withdrawal from the EU. None of these parties have any representation elected to the British House of Commons. About a quarter of that vote went to the British National Party, who ''won'' two seats. As I have already said such extremist alternatives to the EU are really no different to the EU dictatorship itself, and by being so discreditable undermine the case against the EU.
The UK Independence Party increased its representation from 12 to 13 MEP's. But for the BNP acting as a spoiler there would have been many more. I am pleased that my vote helped to ''elect'' two MEP's and displaced one Labour Party appararchik.

And for the next five years we Brits no doubt will continue to pour in some £40 million every day to sustain this empire, so that the political elites can continue to enjoy the lifestyle they are accustomed to........

[RF]

With respect to Obama, well he was elected against what turned out to be weak opposition. Those opposed to Obama in the US really do need to get their act together - and yes, I do mean the Republican Party.

[JtD]

Frankly, the barbaric Christian Hordes in the Middle ages have proven more of of a problem to Islamic people than vice versa.

And I find it disgusting that hate speech as yours Karl is tolerated on this board.

[Karl Heidenreich]

JDt:

I´m working in a country with a 30% + of muslim people and I know what I´m talking about. In case of ignoring facts I´m gonna enumerate some "hate" facts that I didn´t performed but the islamic had:

9/11: twin towers were destroyed. One month before that I was on top of one of them having a cup of coffee with my brother. Wanna see the photos? In November 2001 I was there, again, inspecting a big damn hole.

1. Holocaust Denial. (Who is perfoming here a hate speech?)
2. The 2004 Spain terror bombings
3. The 2005 London terror bombings
4. USS Cole
5. US Embassies in Africa
6. Achille Lauro
7. Entebe´s Air France hijack
8. Mogadishu´s Lufthansa hijack
9. Blowing of the Budda statues in Afganistan
10. 2001 survey in Great Britain: "revealed that 40% of British Muslims believe Osama bin Laden was right to attack the United States. About the same proportion think that British Muslims have a right to fight alongside the Taliban. A radio station serving London's Pakistani community conducted a poll which 98% of London Muslims under 45 said they would not fight for Britain, while 48% said they would fight for bin Laden."
11. 2004 Pew survey: "A 2004 Pew survey revealed that Osama bin Laden is viewed favorably by large percentages in Pakistan (65%), Jordan (55%) and Morocco (45%). In Turkey as many as 31% say that suicide attacks against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable"
12. 4 september 1974: Munich Olimpic Massacre
13. 26 February 1993: World Trade Center bombing
14. 13 March 1993: Bombai bombings. The single-day attacks resulted in over 250 civilian fatalities and 700 injuries.
15. 24 december 1994: Air France Flight 8969
16. 25 June 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
17. 14 February 1998. The 1998 Coimbatore bombings occurred in the city of Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 46 people were killed and over 200 were injured in 13 bomb attacks within a 12 km radius.
18. 7 August 1998 - 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
19. 13 December 2001 - Suicide attack on India's parliament in New Delhi. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. Allegedly done by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.
20. 3 March 2002 - Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 29 dead, 133 injured
21. 9 March 2002 - Café suicide bombing in Jerusalem; 11 killed, 54 injured.
22. 7 May 2002 - Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
23. 24 September 2002 - Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[126][127]
24. 12 October 2002 - Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.[128]
25. 16 May 2004 - Casablanca Attacks - 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafaia Jihadia.
26. 3 September 2004 Approximately 344 civilians including 186 children, are killed during the Beslan school hostage crisis
27. 2 November 2004 - Ritual murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.
28. 4 February 2005 - Muslim militants attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
29. 23 July 2005 - Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
30. 29 October 2005 - 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.
31. 9 November 2005 - 2005 Amman bombings. Over 60 killed and 115 injured, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan. Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.
32. 7 March 2006 - 2006 Varanasi bombings. An attack attributed to Lashkar-e-Toiba by Uttar Pradesh government officials, over 28 killed and over 100 injured, in a series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi. Uttar Pradesh government officials.
33. 11 July 2006. Mumbai, India. 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings were a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai (formerly known as Bombay). 209 people lost their lives and over 700 were injured in the attacks.
34. 26 July 2008. Ahmedabad, India. Islamic militants detonate at least 16 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 49 dead and 160 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence. Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of militants suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, The Students Islamic Movement of India
35. 26 November 2008. Mumbai, India. Muslim extremists kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in a series of coordinated attacks on India's largest city and financial capital. A group calling itself the Deccan Mujaheddin claims responsibility, however, the government of India suspects Islamic militants based in Pakistan are responsible. Ajmal Kasab, one of the militants, was caught alive.
36. The Irani hijack of the US Embassy in Teheran and retaining the personnel

And I can assure you that we can list hundreds more, indeed, pal...

How many innocent people has died because of the "hate" these people have? You sound like the guys that killed Teo van Gogh!

To that you must add the way in which these people live:

1. Honor Killings that families performed for "dishonour of their female members when they are raped" They punish the victim, not the offender.
2. Throwing acid to your wife because she talked to another man in the grocery store
3. Mutilation of female genitals
4. Just see what happened in Mogadishu in 1993! Rent Black Hawk Down, a "hate movie"
5. Rape-wedding customs
6. Their complete renounce to study any literature that´s not religious. In a survey done some years ago Spain, alone, pusblished more books than all the islamic countries put together. They deny science and discovery which is why they still live in the Middle Ages

Finally; Please guess who is building nuclear weapons to wipe out Israel out of the face of the Earth. I can assure you that it´s not me!

In each and every place a guy called Mohammed is, there is trouble, war and death! Not my hate: THEIRS!!!!!! I´m just pointing facts as Orianna Fallaci did or Steiner is.

Best regards,

Karl

[Karl Heidenreich]

JtD:

And I find it disgusting that hate speech as yours Karl is tolerated on this board.

That´s cool. Like Venezuela´s Chavez. When someone said something he do not like then he says it´s "imperialistic" or "reactionary" and he got all oposition TV and radio stations closed. Or like North Korea, Iran or wherever there is a dictatorship, specially an islamic one. Ideas that do not belong to your mindset have to be banned. Thinking is prohibited. Welcome to the Holy Inquisition! In this case, welcome to the Crescent Moon Inquisition which will start openly when Europe finally falled into muslim hands and become Eurobia.

[Bgile]

In each and every place a guy called Mohammed is, there is trouble, war and death! Not my hate: THEIRS!!!!!! I´m just pointing facts as Orianna Fallaci did or Steiner is.
Karl

You can make that same statement about Christianity and Hinduism.

One of the differences is the only halfway effective way the Islamists can fight us is to use suicide. We can drop 750 lb bombs from 30,000 feet. Our weapons are much more efficient, and we have killed far more innocent Iraqis alone than Osama's people have killed of ours, and Iraqis had nothing at all to do with 9/11. Every time we kill someone's family, we make an enemy for life and a potential suicide bomber. I might react the very same way, were I in their shoes. It makes little difference to a father if his family is killed by a suicide bomber or a "mistake" by a foreign invader.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

They started... a thousand years ago.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile,

I do know you will appreciatte this because you are a decent man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpohfny7 ... re=related

Best regards,

[Karl Heidenreich]

You can make that same statement about Christianity and Hinduism.

One of the differences is the only halfway effective way the Islamists can fight us is to use suicide. We can drop 750 lb bombs from 30,000 feet. Our weapons are much more efficient, and we have killed far more innocent Iraqis alone than Osama's people have killed of ours, and Iraqis had nothing at all to do with 9/11. Every time we kill someone's family, we make an enemy for life and a potential suicide bomber. I might react the very same way, were I in their shoes. It makes little difference to a father if his family is killed by a suicide bomber or a "mistake" by a foreign invader.

Nobody claims that Christianity or Hindus or Jews or Atilla and the Huns have behaved better in History. But something is certain: with progress, education and culture Chrisitanity have developed societies in much better enviroments for the free spirits to develop. Our democracies are perfect? Nope. Our culture is complete? Nope. But since Renaisance the West had gathered all the cultural lugage the Greeks, the Romans, the Church (yeah, you hear me, the Church), Martin Luther and the enlightend had given to us: Schiller, Goethe, Voltarie, Rousseau, Locke, Michellangelo, Da Vinci, Beethoven, Handel, Bach, van Gogh, El Greco, Falla, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. as with the western scientists that had built modern marvels surrounding us and make something wonderful. Far from perfect but still wonderfull.

Islam rejects all this. West is Satan. Western "freedom" is dangerous for Islam. That´s why in Turkey Kamel Attaturk send all mullahs into the mosques. In case of doubt, people, seek in wikipedia for this guy´s biography. Being a muslim he knew what his religion was capable to destroy.

But tell me: before 9/11 which countries the US was attacking? As a matter of fact the US forces have been fightinhg in Kosovo saving muslims from genocide from Milosevic. Or in Somalia trying to get Aidid in Mogadishu so to bring hope to their people.

Just because Bush attacked Irak doesn´t mean that the US policy was wrong per se. The US warfare, if no one has notice it, is defensive. If it was offensive then by now Iran and some other worthless places will be a nuclear wasteground. Every time the US has intervend someone has spilled first blood earlier. And the "Irak" war can hardly be declared as "conquest" which, by the way, is what the Jihad is about: conquer the infidels.

Yeah. In the year 1100 the Christians didn´t behave well. Neither the vikings nor the aztecs nor the incas in their time. Chrisitans learn... maybe the hard way, but it has been the Chrisitans that came up with the Red Cross, and the League of Nations, and Human Rights Watch, and Greenpeace, and WWF, and the UN, and it was Christians that organized the Live Aid to Africa, etc. etc. etc.

It were the muslims those that attacked the WTC without any real need. They did it for the sake of their twisted faith. Did the US retailated in kind, let´s say blowing Meca or Rihaj up to the stars? No. Why? Because even Bush was not an animal like Osama. He distinguished between the enemy and the innocent as all westerners. But being Osama in his place, would he do the difference? Let´s give Osama a atomic bomb and see if he can make the distintion.

And now? Is Obama giving "total war" to the muslims? Nope. Because he is civilized and will work with the hope (vain as I regard) that these people will accept a world of tolerance. But the tolerance works both ways. I would give it to those that will give it to me. If by giving tolerance I lost my freedom and that of my sons then I can say: "Go to hell and let´s fight!" Which is what sooner or later will happen.

And I pray that Machiavelli was wrong...

[Bgile]

Karl,

I think you are painting Moslems with too broad a brush. Many of them do not subscribe to the teachings of the radicals.

[RF]

And I find it disgusting that hate speech as yours Karl is tolerated on this board.

Hate speeches.......

I had thought we were supposed to have freedom of speech and expression on this forum.

''Hate speeches'' is a term of political correctness. It is designed to deny freedom of speech by making it unacceptable to say certain things or to criticise, in this case, the Islamic religion. It is a form of what used to be called ''cultural marxism.''

This thread was originally started to discuss the political future of the European continent, now we have digressed into Asian religion and by implication the Crusades and the situation in Palestine.

Is the future of Europe now to be consumed within issues of accomodating Islam and dealing with ''Islamophobia?'' I am an atheist. To me religion belongs in the Stone Age, the whole World would be a far happier place without religion.