Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
Moderator: Bill Jurens
Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
Most people say that the Bismarck is down by the bow on that picture. Yet if you look closely you will see that right behind the end of turret Bruno, the waterline literally has a bends up towards the bow. I rather think that the Bismarck is sailing through a rough sea, went past a wave and is hitting a new one.
I seriously doubt the Bismarck would manage 28 Knots if she was that low on the water.
What it your opinion about the picture?
I seriously doubt the Bismarck would manage 28 Knots if she was that low on the water.
What it your opinion about the picture?
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Re: Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
I suspect that you are essentially correct. My feeling has always been that the photographer 'snapped' the photo when the ship was in one of its most extreme positions, i.e. one that was visually the most interesting, and that photos taken at random would not show nearly so much apparent trim by the bow. In this case you had both a heavy bow trim and a visually spectacular 'spray' of white water from the propellers simultaneously.
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Re: Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
I just did a bit more photogrammetric work on the photo in question. If you take the horizon to be horizontal (a reasonable assumption given the sea conditions), you will find that the masts come out to all intents and purposes dead vertical, which would suggest the ship is hardly trimming at all. After a few other manipulations and measurements, and a bit of 'forcing' I can derive a trim of about 1.25 degrees by the bow, about 2.5 meters ‘down’ forward.
Bill Jurens
Bill Jurens
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Re: Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
Thank you for your analysis. I have always assumed that picture was misleading to the point of almost being useless to show the ship's trim, but you have clarified that there actually is some trim by the bow.
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Re: Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
Bill,
Were you ever able to find damage you could reasonably equate to the shell hit from PoW?
Were you ever able to find damage you could reasonably equate to the shell hit from PoW?
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Re: Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
My own opinion is 'no'. There is some damage on the portside forward which appears as though some material might have been welded in place, and there are a few holes and damaged areas on the starboard side which may (or may not) correspond with an exit hole (or holes) close to what would have been the waterline in action, but nothing that would seems to represent "unequivocal candidates" in either place. There are so many general shell and splinter damaged areas scattered about this area, so much corrosion, and so much damage that might have occurred post impact or via hydrostatic implosion, etc., that it's really difficult to correlate an specific hole (or holes) with the forward hit, especially insofar as repair work may have obliterated -- or nearly obliterated -- damage to the shell entirely in some places.
So, unfortunately, there is really no 'smoking gun'. In the Bismarck Design and Operational History book, I did the best I can via all the sources and knowledge I could accumulate, to illustrate the situation on the damage diagrams.
[off-topic material deleted on 29 May, 2021]
Bill Jurens
So, unfortunately, there is really no 'smoking gun'. In the Bismarck Design and Operational History book, I did the best I can via all the sources and knowledge I could accumulate, to illustrate the situation on the damage diagrams.
[off-topic material deleted on 29 May, 2021]
Bill Jurens
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Re: Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
Thank you for your clarification.
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Re: Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
You are correct. It is the pitching motion of the ship in rough seas.Danro wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:41 am Most people say that the Bismarck is down by the bow on that picture. Yet if you look closely you will see that right behind the end of turret Bruno, the waterline literally has a bends up towards the bow. I rather think that the Bismarck is sailing through a rough sea, went past a wave and is hitting a new one.
I seriously doubt the Bismarck would manage 28 Knots if she was that low on the water.
What it your opinion about the picture?
Here is another after the battle photo where the Bismarck appears to be on an even keel with no trim at all.
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Re: Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
Gentlemen,
I thought that in the 'Barons' book he said that after they received the hit in the bow it shipped 2000 tons of water and in the rough seas the propellers were occasionally coming out of the water. Surely, if 2000 tons of water did enter the bow section it would have an adverse effect on the ship by making it pitch through being bow heavy and the second picture either shows the ship under way after the water had been pumped out or the ship had been trimmed? Also, was the 28 knots mentioned only after Bismarck had slowed to make repairs to the bow, as it is doubtful if the repairs could have been carried out while going at that speed.
I thought that in the 'Barons' book he said that after they received the hit in the bow it shipped 2000 tons of water and in the rough seas the propellers were occasionally coming out of the water. Surely, if 2000 tons of water did enter the bow section it would have an adverse effect on the ship by making it pitch through being bow heavy and the second picture either shows the ship under way after the water had been pumped out or the ship had been trimmed? Also, was the 28 knots mentioned only after Bismarck had slowed to make repairs to the bow, as it is doubtful if the repairs could have been carried out while going at that speed.
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Re: Famous picture showing Bismarck down by the bow
Gentlemen,
As an afterthought, if Bismarck did indeed have 2000 tons of seawater in her bow via the shell hit, roughly how long would it take to ship that amount and again (roughly), how long would it take to pump it all out and patch the hole after having (I presume) to slow down to do so?
I realise we have been through the possibilities of Bismarck of pursuing PoW before on past threads on several occasions, but it seems to me that if her speed was limited to 28 knots, that by the time any repairs had been carried out and the ship pumped clear, PoW even travelling at 27 knots would have been long gone and impossible to catch, so in theory, this should close any debate on that subject for all time.
As an afterthought, if Bismarck did indeed have 2000 tons of seawater in her bow via the shell hit, roughly how long would it take to ship that amount and again (roughly), how long would it take to pump it all out and patch the hole after having (I presume) to slow down to do so?
I realise we have been through the possibilities of Bismarck of pursuing PoW before on past threads on several occasions, but it seems to me that if her speed was limited to 28 knots, that by the time any repairs had been carried out and the ship pumped clear, PoW even travelling at 27 knots would have been long gone and impossible to catch, so in theory, this should close any debate on that subject for all time.