NH69722 - Battle? Or exercise in the Baltic?

[Herr Nilsson]

Take a look at the window layout.

download/file.php?id=133

I've always thought Hipper was different?

[Olaf]

Take a look at the window layout.

download/file.php?id=133

I've always thought Hipper was different?

Of course HP was different ... no doubt about it ...

Happy window-counting ~ Olaf!

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Olaf and Marc,

I agree with you that Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen were different on many things, ... as they were 2 different class of ship too on reality.

But keeping the comparison on the B-Bruno and C-Caesar main turret side look and added details, what can be clearly stated is that :

1 - Admiral Hipper never had that ' rafts holding metal bar ' from back turret to the stair on mid turret placed under the rangefinder hood and still on the sloped turret surface ( see my attached above 1945 Prinz Eugen C turret photo ); while she had a different "metal bar" Vic showed us above with some Yellow arrows on the flat side of the turret, and it was much longer and going well over the central stair.

2 - Prinz Eugen ONLY had the "rafts holding metal bar" on sloped surface till the stair and NEVER had the other bar Adm Hipper had placed below on the turret flat lateral surface.

The 2 above declared differences are easy to be checked and confirmed all along the Prinz Eugen (from Dec 40 till the end) and Adm Hipper ( from early 1940 till the end ) life.

Consequenlty is confirmed once again, since it adds up on top of MANY other evidences, that NH 69722 shows Prinz Eugen turrets at Denmark Strait.

Easy and irrefutable, ... no other possibilities here......

I think you would easily agree with me,...I am not sure about Vic,.... lets see.....

Ciao Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

Thank you!

Out of curiosity, we all agree that this ship is Prinz Eugen?

download/file.php?id=112

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Marc,

ABSOLUTELY YES ! everything confirms it is Prinz Eugen. Just like this one is too : http://www.kbismarck.com/photo053.html

Bye Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

Out of curiosity, we all agree that this is Hipper?

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 9454;image

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 9413;image

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Marc and all,

YES,I AGREE it is Adm Hipper.

Ciao Antonio

[Vic Dale]

To Marc

I think this is Hipper.

If you look at the version of NH69722 below, you will see that the black line extends around the back of the turret. Considering that the sides and back of the turret are separate pieces of armour plate and of varying thickness which are bolted into position on a frame which forms the turret as a whole. They may need from time to time to be removed for certain maintenance procedures. The awning rail on which life rafts may have been hung, is welded in place and would therefore be a permanent fixture until it was chiseled off.

As for the line itself, I think it is not the rail of which Antonio speaks, but rather a demarcation between two different shades of paint applied over dark paint. You cannot paint so that two shades of paint meet until one is fully dry - about 12 hours. So in order to quickly change camouflage you would paint close up to the line but leaving a gap, so that both shades can dry before finally touching out the remaining paint below.

If two different light shades of paint are being applied over a dark area such as may have been on the turret originally, the resulting dark line could be left as it appears in NH69722.

What looks like grey in a monochrome photo may very well be red.

This may or may not explain what we can see, but certainly the sight of the line extending round the back of the turret rules out a welded rail. Nor does the dark line look like a welded rail anyway.

We should also consider what purpose additional life rafts would serve, surely if carrying troops or perhaps when moving out into the Atlantic. If they were considered necessary for Exercise Rhine, why can't we see them?

I have something new to say about your "white line" on the deck, but will deal with that on the appropriate thread.

Vic Dale

[Olaf]

Out of curiosity, we all agree that this is Hipper?

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 9454;image

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 9413;image

Unless Vic is trying to convince us that it is indeed Blücher ...

What is that platform on that turret for?

Happy guessing ~ Olaf!

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Olaf,

Vic is only trying as usual when cornered to move the discussion out of the need to admit he was totally wrong

So is technique is very easy, change slowly subject moving away, provide confusing low quality photos in quantity and move away as quick as possible still keeping everything open, ........ despite what you provide him, ... with any kind of evidence and in any kind of quality,..... he will never admit his failure.

So it is useless to keep on trying, .... it is only a waste of time with him.

Any normal average persons at this point must have understood what are Adm Hipper turret characteristics and what are Prinz Eugen ones, they are very well showed and explained in full details.

It is cristal clear under the sun that Nh 69722 shows Prinz Eugen turrets, well demosntrated and supported, like it is well demonstrated being impossible to be Adm Hipper, ... so 2 demosntrations on it.

A person like Vic, able to invent and post those others tricky photos is surely in condition to understand everything.

Only the fairness and intention to accept the reality as it shows here is missing from his side, ... but there are scientific names for this attitude on acting.

Unfortunately we are moving out of the pure Naval Historical discussion here, .. and this is sad ... but many persons now have understood clearly this point and on different way they have addressed this to Vic, .. unsuccesfully as usual so far, .. like everything else.

Enough said,...... I stop here,.. and I will try to reduce to the minimum my personal involvment on this useless debate now.

Ciao Antonio

[Vic Dale]

Hello Olaf.

After going through all my material on the Hipper class vessels I have now ruled out Hipper from this photo. That does not mean that I consider NH69722 to be anything to do with the DS.

Yes I did consider Blucher, but I am not pursuing that line at present.

I will present some new findings later, which I think will clarify some things and cut the ground out from beneath others. First I must properly prepare what I have to show you.

Vic Dale

[Herr Nilsson]

Vic, not so fast.



So we can all agree that the design of Hipper's and Prinz Eugen's "stern cleat" (is this the right word?) and the layout of the fan housings, capstan etc. is totally different?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Marc,

too easy to say YES, we can all agree about it : Prinz Eugen and Adm Hipper had totally different stern area layouts that adds to the totally different B and C turret lateral view looking due to the added railings and metal bars that were different.

But as you can see now Vic realized he cannot defend anymore that enourmous superficial wrong declaration and is backing off, ...... be sure he is going to come back with another one more superficial wrong and ridicolous than this one, .....

Before he was so blind he could not see Prinz Eugen metal bar in front of him, .... now he started seeing white lines all over the places, .... with acute eyes,.... so acute that he sees lines even if they are not there ..... what an incredible guy ....

Ciao Antonio

[Patrick McWilliams]

Hello Olaf.

After going through all my material on the Hipper class vessels I have now ruled out Hipper from this photo. That does not mean that I consider NH69722 to be anything to do with the DS.

Yes I did consider Blucher, but I am not pursuing that line at present.

I will present some new findings later, which I think will clarify some things and cut the ground out from beneath others. First I must properly prepare what I have to show you.

Vic Dale

Ok, credit to Vic for conceding that the lead ship was not Hipper. He does not need to be pilloried for offering us alternatives, now that Hipper is ruled out.

One question: do the relative positions of the two ships equate well or badly with where they are known (or believed) to be at that stage of the battle? Off the top of my head, it must have been very early in the battle as Bismarck had yet to come up on PE's port side where the famous flash photo of her firing on PoW was taken.

Antonio: in chess, a person "resigns" when it's clear that his position is hopeless. That's the expression you were looking for.

[Herr Nilsson]

After going through all my material on the Hipper class vessels I have now ruled out Hipper from this photo.

Sorry, Vic, we've posted almost at the same time. I didn't read this before my last posting.

However, this was a good decision.