Denmark Strait - Run ?

[30knots]

Hi Folks,

Sorry if this has been asked before, but on sighting the Hood and PoW, could the Bismarck (and Prinz Eugen) have simply turned West and 'ran' ?

Thanks for any replies.

[Karl Heidenreich]

They could have turned Northeast back into the Straits.

[Vic Dale]

Hi Folks,

Sorry if this has been asked before, but on sighting the Hood and PoW, could the Bismarck (and Prinz Eugen) have simply turned West and 'ran' ?

Thanks for any replies.

Good Question.

They most certainly could have turned, but in the turning they would have given away the work they did through the night in getting close to the open Atlantic. Not only that they would still have faced a battle with PoW and Hood. Far better I think to continue ahead and to force the blockade.

Although it is not documented anywhere, I would not mind betting that the ship's command felt the jig was up and that they faced certain defeat if Hood could not be bested. After all if she remained in the fight, she of all ships had the ability to stay with the Germans, with the result that she would most surely inflict heavy damage on one or both.

At the time the engagement opened Prinz Eugen was 3000m ahead of Bismarck and if it became clear that Bismarck would succumb, she could show a clean pair of heels. If the squadron turned it would placed the cruiser under the guns of Suffolk and Norfolk, which is exactly what Admiral Holland had intended.

It looks like a brave decision to stand and fight and I am not questioning anyones courage, but it seem to me that the Germans had no option but to fight it out.

Vic Dale

[Karl Heidenreich]

Vic,

I disagree with your assessment about the enviroment at Bismarck´s bridge, specially the Admiral´s intentions. Being, likely, the greatest Bismarck fan here and a supporter of the idea that the German BB could have nailed PoW at DS, I also tend to think that the basic directive at the combat was an unwillingness from Lutjens to take any decision at all.

If you see Bismarck´s plot there is little or no change before Bismarck confirmed contact with Hood and PoW and during the combat itself. I don´t think it was because Lutjens had the foresight or the will to put Bismarck in History books. I think that he lost his nerve (as has happened to many commanders in History) and he did nothing to alter what was going on. On the contrary Lindemann and the ship´s senior complement did everything in their hands to perform and be remembered as the heroes they were.

As I always stated DS is a German victory but an incomplete one: the ongoing destruction of PoW didn´t took place and the logical manouver which was to turn around and get into the Strait (and possibly endangering one or both British cruisers) was not performed. Lutjens decided to leave PoW alone, only to put it on his tail a little bit later and take a course that will end in the sinking of the German BB.

I sense no special bravery in Lutjens´decisions. I place no special tactical skills neither.

Best regardss

[José M. Rico]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but on sighting the Hood and PoW, could the Bismarck (and Prinz Eugen) have simply turned West and 'ran' ?

Not at all. The pack ice limit didn't give them too much room to monoeuvre.

[30knots]

Much thanks for your replies guys.

Jose,

i thought they were too far South for that to interfere. I could be wrong though. Thanks.

What i'm thinking is the outrunning of them going west, then going south to the same re-fueller as Prinz Eugen when Hood and PoW have had to disengage due to lack of fuel.

[dunmunro]

I spent a fair amount of time investigating Bismarck's likely top speed, and IMHO, she could not have outrun either Hood or PoW. I suspect that both RN ships had about a knot more speed.

[30knots]

What about fuel capacity ?

[dunmunro]

What about fuel capacity ?

Bismark had more fuel capacity but that wouldn't have helped her escape from DS. In fact. I suspect that Lutjens knew that he was at a disadvantage regarding speed, and hence did not have the option to avoid a fight.

[30knots]

thanks dunmunro,

I guess thats the essence of the question. Speed and fuel. I thought the speeds of the warships were roughly equal (no speed posts allowed!). Bismarck and Prinz Eugen west as far as possible before south to the re-fueller which we know was there.

[Vic Dale]

To Karl.

So here is Lutjens, the man who chose to dash through the Strait and try to beat any shadowing forces to position, regardless of weather warnings from his meteorologist. The man who turned his flagship aggressively toward the British force despite battleship support, twice to enable PG to disengage and the man who had the nous to turn his ship under the sterns of the shadowing squadron and shake them off.

Lindemann as Captain of Bismarck had full tactical control duringthe battle of DS as it was he who had trained and drilled the crew. His was the position of central command the crew would work to him and he would in turn take orders from Lutjens. I think it will have taken great fortitude on Lutjens' part not to interfere. Adm. Ciliax tried to interfere during an air attack on Tirpitz and Karl Topp told him to back off as he was legally entitled to do.

All Lutjens would need to say is engage the enemy to port and fire when ready and it seems that Lindemann did precisely that. Any delay in opening fire would be down to tactical decisions by Lindemann.

Admiral Lutjens is the same man who took a battleship force to sea earlier in the year and succeeded in disrupting convoys by directing the Atlantic U-Boat force. Using his spotter planes to seek convoys he directed the boats onto them and finally secured an unescorted convoy and shattering it with his surface ships.

No decisions? I doubt any of us could do better.

Vic Dale

[Karl Heidenreich]

My assesment on Lutjens can be simply put: he failed to order Bismarck to open fire, he failed to exploit his victory, he failed to return to Norway, he failed to bring his flagship and crew alive to Germany. He failed. Period.

[Patrick McWilliams]

I spent a fair amount of time investigating Bismarck's likely top speed, and IMHO, she could not have outrun either Hood or PoW. I suspect that both RN ships had about a knot more speed.

Without getting too far off track, you're making a very bold statement that contradicts most of the evidence we have about this. Please let us know what new evidence you've discovered about Bis. being one knot *slower than PoW (Hood's top speed was 29 knots, IIRC, and Bis. could match that).

[Karl Heidenreich]

It´s a pitty that I don´t have it with me, but if anyone wants to take a look in Bruce Taylor´s book about Hood it´s clear that PoW could barely follow Hood. Also, we know that Bismarck diminished her speed to 28 knots after the shot from PoW. So, at least the Germans were as fast as the British. I think Hood could outrun Bismarck and PE could outrun everybody there. PoW was the slowest vessel there.

[dunmunro]

I spent a fair amount of time investigating Bismarck's likely top speed, and IMHO, she could not have outrun either Hood or PoW. I suspect that both RN ships had about a knot more speed.

Without getting too far off track, you're making a very bold statement that contradicts most of the evidence we have about this. Please let us know what new evidence you've discovered about Bis. being one knot *slower than PoW (Hood's top speed was 29 knots, IIRC, and Bis. could match that).

Please read this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1602

To summarize:

PoW's log records her speed as averaging 29 knots for the for two hours prior to DS. PoW ran trials at 28 knots with ~112000 SHP. In service she is recorded to have attained 134000 SHP. Hood ran trials in March 1941 at 28.8 knots with Paravanes streamed and it is estimated that this would reduce her speed by .5 knots. Bismarck never exceeded 27 knots in her war diary from Aug 1940 onward, and her trials data is shrouded in mystery and contains much contradictory data.