Color of Bismarck turret tops

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Luca and all,

WELCOME

As you may have noticed I used your photo example for the red turret, as it was the easier one I can find and made available

Your post is execellent congratulation for the analysis and the support sources provided

Still it leaves my doubt open :

I have neither solicited nor seen statements from Royal Navy veterans of the Bismarck action on the subject of the yellow scheme, so this avenue of inquiry is still open.

I haven't the time or interest to pursue it, but perhaps someone else does.

It should be done soon, before much more time passes and takes with it any remaining survivors.

Now I am curious to see if I can find soon were I have read that a veteran of Dorsetshire or Rodney ( I cannot recall ) said that while Bismarck was capsizing he noticed the Yellow tops painted on the main turrets.

That is exactly the point that needs to be investigated further more.

Talk to you soon my friend

Ciao Antonio

[Luca Bevilacqua]

Hi Antonio,
thank you my friend for you give me a credit I do not really deserve.

I just happened to notice the photo caption on the polish book, about the red A, and discuss it with competent friends.
So all the credits must go to people that have had this great interest long before I did + already knew about it.
Guess who I am referring to ?
Perhaps, among them, a person whose name is Antonio ?
Enough for reciprocal compliments otherwise it can be seen as an italian lobby (God forbids, italian lobbies do not enjoy good reputation, usually) .

Back to the point I see you quoted the last phrase of the quote I cited.
I just wanted to underscore that those are in fact words of the original Mr William Aldorfer post on SMML.
Not my own. I am sure you got it perfectly, but after reading them I was just afraid someone else could misunderstand this detail.

Ciao my friend

Luca

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Luca and all,

I am usually very easy to give the credits to the one that do deserve them, as I normally expect the same, among gentleman

No problems Luca, you used first that reference and I found it easy to leverage on your available example to provide Javier something available to use as reference, so it is for you my friend

You know my opinion, those ships are of the free world, none of us can own anyting of them in any way, we can only use our capabilities to study, learn, discuss and explain, and mostly fail while doing it very often as those ships always will surprise us.

But it is our common passion so lets do it

Enough for compliments and no lobby, we do not need them.

I thought it was clear that the phrase was taken out of William Aldorfer (0464 issue) statements you used as reference.

Anyway good to underline it to avoid misinterpretations.

I still have to recall were I have read about those British sailors, ... surely on some reports of the last battle, ... on article, inquiry or books, ... I have to find them out, .. but now I am too busy.. later on.

Ciao Antonio

[Pax Melmacia]

Hans Gally, in Warship No. 35 I believe, states "On 26 May 1941 the turret roofs of the heavy and secondary armament were painted yellow but the heavy seas washed away the colour of the 15cm guns".

Please forgive this landlubber question, but wouldn't wave action be more likely to wash off paint from the lower (and closer to the water) secondary turret tops than from the main turrets?

[Luca Bevilacqua]

Hi Pax,

right, in fact the 15 cm were the secondary.
The main guns were 38 cm.
Just what you thought.
Since the main turrets lay upside down in the seabottom the expeditions have never been able to get pics of their tops.
Tops of the secondary (15 cm) seem gray. So the speculation goes that IF they were ever painted yellow that colour must have been washed away.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that some crew members stated that just that happened (washing out soon after painting on the secondary).
I wish I could be more precise.

Ciao

Luca

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

here for you something to follow thru about the Bismarck top turrets.

From: John Snyder <John_Snyder@macnexus.org>

Subject: Re: Was BISMARCK Yellow?

Well, once more, here's my take on the subject:

In September 1940, then-LCDR Joseph H. Wellings, USN, was serving in a staff position in Washington, D.C. under RADM Leary and CAPT Willis A. Lee (later of Guadalcanal fame in command of WASHINGTON and SOUTH DAKOTA when they sank the KIRISHIMA). Wellings was about to take command of a Pacific Fleet DD when he was recalled and sent to England, ostensibly to serve with the Naval Attache in London.

In fact, he was deputed to share technical information with the RN and upon arrival was posted to Scapa Flow. He served in a variety of ships from DDs to BBs, including the HOOD. He was finally returning home in May 1941 aboard the BB NELSON when the BISMARCK breakout occurred, and thus he was a witness to the kill of the German battleship.

In 1983 the Naval War College published _On His Majecty's Service_, an account of Wellings' experiences based on his official and personal diaries, and on his letters home to his wife. All of it is very interesting reading. It is his account of the BISMARCK sinking however, that proved of greatest interest to me.

Remember that during the first strike from ARK ROYAL the Swordfish crews mistakenly attacked SHEFFIELD. Remember too, that BISMARCK expected to be within range of Luftwaffe support the next day, and that the Luftwaffe was known by the DKM to be not too good on ship identification. Thus, both sides had concerns about accurate aerial identification.

On page 231 of his book, Wellings records 'Naval Messages received in HMS RODNEY, 0900-2400 27 May 1941'.

And here lies [in my mind, since it's based on primary source material and not memories that are now nearly 60 years old] the answer to the debate, for at 0920 GMT that date, the Admiralty transmitted the following message to Commander in Chief, Home Fleet:

"Roof of BISMARCK turrets and gun shields painted bright yellow."

That message could only have been based on eyewitness information, either from Swordfish pilots who had hit her, or from the Catalina crew that had found her. The Admiralty, knowing that the area would be full of ships, obviously wanted no recurrence of the SHEFFIELD incident.

For the researcher who wants to track this further [you folks over there in the UK], there is probably a signal TO the Admiralty from ARK ROYAL, or a sighting report from the Catalina, that would give the basis of the Admiralty signal.

In MY mind the matter is settled: the tops of main battery turrets, and secondary gun houses were painted in bright yellow, at least during the last 2 days of the ship's life.

John Snyder
Snyder & Short Enterprises

This e-mail was extracted from here :

http://smmlonline.com/archives/VOL0465.txt

Than on the ' Supplement to the London Gazette ' of 1941 were Adm Tovey released his version of the facts you can read his personal compliments to the great efforts that the airplanes did on shadowing and providing a lot of very precise and useful informations about the Bismarck.

Now you can correlate the 2 facts listed above and we have a very solid track to follow.

Still I have to find were I have read the Rodney or Dorsetshire sailors statements about having noticed the same thing when the Bismarck was capsizing, .. she had the main turrets top's ( probably only the flat surfaces ) painted in yellow.

That will be another solid track,.. as they were there carefully watching a very important historical fact, .. from very close.

Ciao Antonio

[José M. Rico]

Hello everyone,

I recently came upon a new photo of the Bismarck that is somehow revealing as it shows dark turret tops (rectangular centre panels only) BEFORE December 1940. Take a look at Malte Gaack's website here:

http://www.diebismarck.de/engman07.jpg

This photo was taken at the pier in Gotenhafen some time between October-November 1940. Notice that turret "Anton" still has its rangefinder (it was not removed until the winter 1940-41 in Hamburg), and there is no Swastika painted on the ship's deck at the bow. The gun barrels are still light grey.

José

[Kit-Builder]

This new photo could fit between these two...........maybe .


and this one before full fit-out?


Regards Steve (sorry to poke my nose in here if it's unwelcome)

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Jose', Steve and all,

a very nice photo .. very important and new to me as well.

Thanks for showing it Jose'

So far I was on 9 different Bismarck camo schemes ( letters from A till I ) now I have to add one more, this new one,.. so we are on J now .

This ship had all sorts of trials as far as top turrets, I am sure we are not finished yet .

So to recap and provide some infos for the ones that do want to realize all the different versions here some inputs from my side, as I love to share the infos I have with no problems ( the ones I can of course ).

Hope you are familiar with my system/matrix of tracking the ships evolution and camouflages with numbers ( technical modifications ) and letters ( camouflages ) :

On 1940

Ship on 2 tones grey without Baltic camo scheme, A turret rangefinders still there and no forward rangefinder (technical scheme 1 )

A) 2 tone grey without top turrets colours.

B) 2 tone grey with top turrets FLAT top painted ( probably only dark grey )

On 1941

Ship with full Baltic camo stripes ( Black and White ) on top of the usual 2 tone Grey, no more A turret rangefinders still no forward rangefinder (technical scheme 2 ).

C) Baltic camo with top turrets FLAT part only painted ( probably dark grey )

D) Baltic camo with FULL top turrets painted ( probably red or dark grey )and FLAT part of A and D with different colour ( can be either dark gray or red; and also end of B and C guns barrels with same colour too ), sloped part of A and D coloured as C and B turrets.

Ship receives the forward rangefinder ( technical scheme 3 ).

E) Baltic camo with FULL top turrets on B+C+D turrets and a different colour on A turret FULL top ( as well as the gun barrels end of B ).

Ship receives 2 Flak 20 mm vierlings and 2 single 20 mm model C 30 army mounting ( technical scheme 4 ).

F) Baltic camo with FULL dark grey top turrets.

G) Baltic camo with only FLAT top coloured ( dark grey ).

Ship ready for Op. Rheinubung and the Baltic camo removed from the upperworks.

H) Partial Baltic camo ( hull only ) and FLAT top turrets ( dark grey ).

Ship in Grimstad Fjord ( Norway ) all Baltic camo removed also from the hull.

I) 2 tone grey with white waves, FLAT top turrets ( dark grey ).

On May 26th, 1941 on the Atlantic ocean.

J) Top turrets painted yellow approaching France.


Hope the argument is interesting for you all as it is for me,.. for this ship as well as for all the other ones.

Surely we are not finished yet, .. as like I am used to say,.. surely this ship will surprise us again,.. and again,..just like Jose' showed us

The above infos are a gift from me to the whole naval community, for everyone that wants to know and go deeper and deeper on the research of Bismarck and Kriegsmarine ships camouflages.

Ciao Antonio

[Monitor]

http://www.diebismarck.de/engman07.jpg

Any chance it's the Tirpitz?

[M.A.Soto]

Just a curiosity. This paper model of bismarck cames with yellow roof pattern.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Monitor,

NO, in my opinion that cannot be the Tirpitz.

Tirpitz had the guns mounted into the turrets during fitting up in Wilhelmshaven and for only a very short period of time she still had the rangefinders on A turret, as immediately after they removed them.

Top turrets were light grey colour.

Tirpitz was not commissioned yet at that time, coming out of Wilhelmshaven fitting up area she had already the A turret rangefinders removed.

The ship we are looking at is not anchored in Wilhelmshaven and is already commissioned looking at the sailors on board and the overall ship status.

It is the Bismarck in my opinion.

@ Soto.

about the Bismarck yellow turrets .....

on top of the Bismarck sailoir Otto Maus reporting that he got ordered to paint his own 150 mm turret on May 26th, 1941 :

'' Monday ( May 26th, 1941 ) morning we received orders to paint the top of the turret yellow.

The breakers washed off the paint in a short time, and an attempt for a second coat was abandoned.

The paint adhered only to the main turrets ''.

We have another very solid evidence here in on HMS Rodney :

On page 231 of his book, Wellings records 'Naval Messages received in HMS RODNEY, 09.00-24.00 on 27 May 1941'.

And here lies (in my mind, since it's based on primary source material and not memories that are now nearly 60 years old) the answer to the debate, for at 09.20 GMT that date, the Admiralty transmitted the following message to Commander in Chief, Home Fleet:

"Roof of BISMARCK turrets and gun shields painted bright yellow."

That message could only have been based on eyewitness information, either from Swordfish pilots who had hit her, or from the Catalina crew that had found her.

The Admiralty, knowing that the area would be full of ships, obviously wanted no recurrence of the SHEFFIELD incident.

So I think the 2 evidences above are more than a solid prove of that situation, as I do not think anyone on Royal Navy wanted to have another Sheffield occurrence or a mismatch due to a wrong ship identification.

What they Officially transmitted was carefully evaluated for sure and it is still written on HMS Rodney war diary.

Soon when I will be in London and I will look to have a copy of it, and maybe from other Royal Navy warships too.

Ciao Antonio

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

I have just received this book :

Author: Wellings, Joseph H.

ON HIS MAJESTY'S SERVICE: OBSERVATIONS OF THE BRITISH HOME FLEET FROM THE DIARY, REPORTS, AND LETTERS OF JOSEPH H. WELLINGS, ASSISTANT U.S. NAVAL ATTACHÉ, LONDON, 1940-41.

Edited by John B. Hattendorf. Naval War College

Publisher: Naval War College Press, Newport, RI: 1983

and now together with matrose Maus account and the latest find KM High Command orders for Op. Rheinubung we can assess finally that bright YELLOW on RAL 1003 was the official colour for the Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen Fliegersichtzeichen ( Air recognition top turrets ).

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1659

They had Yellow top's either from Gotenhafen till Bergen and out under Luftwaffe range air coverage , .. and than after while approaching France coming back under Luftwaffe air coverage range, ..... so Bismarck had it ON during her last battle as reported.

... of course I am not done with this argument, .... now on the RED demonstration during the training, .....

Ciao Antonio

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

just check this photo and you will easily understand which colour the top turrets ( A and D flat top turrets plus B and C gun barrels end ) was :

http://www.panther1944.de/community/vie ... 20&start=0


...so after the YELLOW the RED,.... as I was anticipating,.... and the RED is NOT over yet,.....


Ciao Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

Antonio, I see no red. This is a black and white picture.