Two Photos

[Herr Nilsson]

On page 54-55 of Busch's book (it's May, 20th in the morning). :

Als wir die Kammer wieder verlassen, legen die Maenner draußen auf Back und Schanz die Reling nieder. Wieder eine Steigerung der Gefechtsbereitschaft, wieder ein Zeichen dafuer, dass es bald Ernst werden kann.
[…..]
Auf unserer Schanz bespricht der Erste Offizier mit dem Oberbootsmann irgend etwas. Ich gruesse den Fregattenkapitaen, der mich heranwinkt:
„Ich stelle gerade fest, wie wir die Strecktaue ausbringen werden. Wenn wir nachher die Enge Shetland-Bergen passiert haben, kann ein schoener Seegang stehen und die Maenner fallen mir außenbords. Deshalb lasse ich die Dinger lieber zu frueh als zu spaet ausbringen. Und hier,“ er wendet sich an den Oberbootsmann, „werden ueberall parallel zur Bordwand in zwei Meter Abstand dicke weisse Striche gemalt, die duerfen nicht ueberschritten werden!“

Maybe Olaf can translate it.

[Vic Dale]

Who needs Olaf when we have babel fish?

When we leave the chamber again, the Maenner puts outside on bakes and digs the railing down. Again an increase the combat-ready shank, indications for the fact that it can become soon Ernst. [….] On ours dig discusses the first officer with the upper boat man something. I greet the commander, who near-signs me: „I determine straight, how we will yield the stretching ropes. If we passed the tightness Shetland mountains afterwards, a beautiful swell can fall and the Maenner me outboard. Therefore I let the Dinger yield rather too early than too late. And here, “he contacts the upper boat man, „everywhere parallel to the Bordwand into two meters distance thick white lines is painted, which do not duerfen are exceeded! “

LOL

[Olaf]

I know, an English native should do the job, but babelfish? Trying to test my German sense of humour, eh?
Pass it again through babelfish, EN>GE, and let's see what we get then, HA!

As we’re leaving the cabin, the men are folding down the forecastle and poop deck railing. This means another step towards combat readiness, another indication that it could get serious soon.
[…..]
Our XO is talking with the CPO about something on the poop deck. I’m saluting the Commander who beckons me over:

„I'm just thinking about preparing the safety lines. As soon as we will have passed the narrows between Shetland and Bergen it could become a bit bumpy and men could fall overboard. It’s better to have them rigged early than too late. And here”, he turns to the CPO, “we need to paint thick white lines at two metres in distance to the ship's side, stepping over the lines is then prohibited”!

We do not exactly know which CPO (of the many) he is referring to. I assume the one responsible for the ‘general’ seamanship on deck. Interesting, that he uses the plural for the thick white line(s). This whole German passage reads more like a picnic than a report from a battleship that is about to break through the enemy’s lines. When was it written? 1943?

I'm not sure if this helps at all, but the lines were not there on the Gotenhafen photos and on later photos I can't see them either.

Happy discussing ~ Olaf!

[Herr Nilsson]

Thank you, Olaf!

Yes, almost the whole book sounds like a "Kaffeekraenzchen". However, regarding the lines it is very clear. I see absolutely no reason for Busch to fake such a minor matter.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Marc, Olaf and all,

congratulations to you both guys

Your help is always unvaluable to me and I think today you showed everybody what a good teamwork can do when persons do use their competences and value add on a positive way.

You should really feel proud for what you have done as from today the German warship historical material related to Op. Rheinubung preserved into several archives can be better evaluated and associated with historical events with no doubt despite the missing original negatives.

For the Denmark Strait and Op. Rheinubung original photos this is a milestone event, a pharadigm shift forward, and from today onward nobody can put them into any type of discussion anymore.

Again many thanks to you guys for the intuition, the research and the translation of F.O.Busch book text of 1943.

BRAVI !

Ciao Antonio

[ontheslipway]

Well, I wouldn't attach such grand accolades to the notification of the white line Still, it's an interesting fact and one which I have missed for many years and iff not pointed out here it would continue to go unnoticed. It continually surprises me what information can remain hidden in photographs one has seen for years. It does fit the facts, as, of course, it should.

[Vic Dale]

So we have a white line.

I don't think Busch is making it up, I think he is mistaken about the date that's all. The preparations for the Atlantic were being made for late April and a great deal happened to the ship before finally sailing and though he has remembered the event, he has the time wrong.

I read this book many years ago and my recollection of it is that it is a good and enthralling story but I found it very difficult to tie down the dates of some of the events. I could probably write a good account of my own times at sea, yet I know full well that I could only give approximations as to what dates anything actually happened and I know for a fact that I would have some things out of sync. I was on a cruise between the UK and Sidney in 1968 and there were some very important events on the way. In my mind I can clearly recall them all and give details about the ports we visited, but for the life of me I cannot get the order of the visits right without referring to a map to see their logical order. My recall of that cruise is as good as it ever was so the chronological chaos has always been there.

Busch has written a good book, but is it a piece of documentary evidence? I don't consider it so, any more than the Baron's book which has some startling detail. The Baron has some facts which according to more detailed evidence being produced by others, casts his work into doubt. I would put Busch's book in that same category - a good read and an account which gives the feel of being there, but cannot be relied upon, as it is an account written some time after the fact.

The white lines are an interesting fact which broadens our understanding - marginally - but the fact that they can be seen on a photo which is clearly from an exercise, which includes a main battery shoot, the use of depth charges and the oiling rig shows that the lines were there in the Baltic, despite what Busch has said.

Vic Dale

[Olaf]

The white lines are an interesting fact which broadens our understanding - marginally - but the fact that they can be seen on a photo which is clearly from an exercise, which includes a main battery shoot, the use of depth charges and the oiling rig shows that the lines were there in the Baltic, despite what Busch has said.

Now I'm confused. You are not talking about the photo that makes you wonder why the sailors are NOT wearing their anti-flash gear? Does this mean they wore the anti-flash hoods only in combat but not during exercise shooting? From my time in the German Navy, and I assume your Navy handles it the same way, I can recall that even in exercise, the crew should be dressed up as if they were in combat.

On the other hand, you have a point regarding the wake and the shadows. Is there the slightest possibility that this photo was taken later the day, around noon? The British ships were still shadowing the Germans and I can imagine that the German guns were constantly trained towards the enemy, although maybe not in the most critical state of combat readiness. This could explain the crew wearing no anti-flash but it doesn't explain the cloud of smoke from Bismarck. Too bad that my photo material is too poor in quality to really judge if at least this cloud was added later.

Happy Guessing ~ Olaf!

[ontheslipway]

I don't think Busch is making it up, I think he is mistaken about the date that's all.

If I translate to that English, what you try to say is: it doesn't fit my theory so it must be wrong. That's peculiar because pictures taken days before this entry (Most likely following from a diary or log, so that he didn't have to remember all the specifics) doesn't show this white line and pictures thereafter do. This also support the known date and location of the depth charges, camouflage scheme and the oiling rig. I prefer dating images on facts rather than arguments starting with it doesn't make sense to me so it has to be wrong.

Here's a nice link to watch in the mean time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h9XntsS ... playnext=1

[José M. Rico]

That white line went unnoticed to me too for all these years. I wouldn't call this a "milestone event" either, but it is something that helps put the big picture together. Nice find guys!

[José M. Rico]

By the way, I have checked "Schmalenbach film" again and the white line on the deck appears for the first time as Prinz Eugen enters Bergen. I will have to check more photos but I'm pretty sure there was no white line in Gotenhafen during Lütjens' inspection on the 18th. Again good job guys!

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Jose' and all,

I have checked PG film last night as well and I confirm what you saw.

Now with the PG film confirmation the " White Line signature " on Prinz Eugen Rheinubung photos becomes a real irrefutable evidence.

I confirm you that on the Adm Lutjens review on May 18th, 1941 on Gotenhafen there were no White lines on the deck neither aft nor in front.
Consequently as F.O. Busch wrote it was done after, so on the 20th, as on the 18th of May 1941 they were not there.

To make things easier for everybody that wants to follow the reasoning here I have prepared a Prinz Eugen key dates summary.

Prinz Eugen key dates on first half of 1941
from original warship KTB ( Kriegs Tage Buch ) :

From 25 January 1941 until 8 April 1941 she was in Kiel on dock number 5. Since December 1940 the ship is wearing the Baltic camouflage scheme.
9-10 April sailed from Kiel to Gotenhafen with Baltic camo painted on her.
11 April anchored at Gotenhafen
12 April anchored at Gotenhafen
13 April anchored at Gotenhafen (it was Sunday and it was Easter )
14 April anchored at Gotenhafen ( Monday after Easter sailors had a day off )
15 April exercise into Danziger Bucht
16 April exercise into Danziger Bucht
17 April Training with BISMARCK on EM II which is another name for the KM radar Fu Mo 23.
18 April Training with BISMARCK. The depth charge racks were close to D turret as photo Nh 69721 shows
19 April anchored at Gotenhafen
20 April anchored at Gotenhafen
21 April Training into Danziger bucht with destroyer Z 26
22 April anchored at Gotenhafen
23 April while out for training there was a mine explosion underwater ship got damaged, and immediately sailed back to Kiel for repairs
24 April at Kiel into the floating dry-dock C Deutsche Werke until 2 May 1941
3 May anchored at Kiel on Deutsche Werke Liegerplatz 16
4 May anchored at Kiel on Deutsche Werke Liegerplatz 16
5 May anchored at Kiel on Deutsche Werke Liegerplatz 2 until May 8, 1941
9 May anchored at Kiel on Scheerhafen pier until May 11, 1941
12 May Leaves Kiel sailing to Gotenhafen. Depth charge racks now have been moved on the stern area.
13 May Training with BISMARCK on oil/refuel procedures than to Gotenhafen at 23.40
14 May anchored at Gotenhafen Reede
15 May anchored at Gotenhafen Seebanhof
15 May anchored at Gotenhafen Hafenbecken 4 until May 17, 1941
18 May anchored at Gotenhafen Hafenbecken 4 and Adm Lutjens review
18 May anchored at Gotenhafen Hafenbecken 4 at 16.40 leaves for Op. RHEINUBUNG
19 May Punkt Grun 03 meeting with Bismarck and escorting destroyers.
20 May painting the White line on the main deck for safety purpose ( F.O. Busch)
21 May Ship gets re-painted into Bergen Fjord area from the Baltic camo to the Light grey overall
21 May – June 1, 1941 executing Op. Rheinubung on Atlantic Ocean
1 June, 1941 Entering Brest harbour in France; end of Op. RHEINUBUNG
July 1941 Depth charge racks, Oil ring and white line gets removed while into the Brest commerce dry dock

Ciao Antonio

[Vic Dale]

The white lines are an interesting fact which broadens our understanding - marginally - but the fact that they can be seen on a photo which is clearly from an exercise, which includes a main battery shoot, the use of depth charges and the oiling rig shows that the lines were there in the Baltic, despite what Busch has said.

Now I'm confused. You are not talking about the photo that makes you wonder why the sailors are NOT wearing their anti-flash gear? Does this mean they wore the anti-flash hoods only in combat but not during exercise shooting? From my time in the German Navy, and I assume your Navy handles it the same way, I can recall that even in exercise, the crew should be dressed up as if they were in combat.

On the other hand, you have a point regarding the wake and the shadows. Is there the slightest possibility that this photo was taken later the day, around noon? The British ships were still shadowing the Germans and I can imagine that the German guns were constantly trained towards the enemy, although maybe not in the most critical state of combat readiness. This could explain the crew wearing no anti-flash but it doesn't explain the cloud of smoke from Bismarck. Too bad that my photo material is too poor in quality to really judge if at least this cloud was added later.

Happy Guessing ~ Olaf!

There would be no necessity for the target ship in a gunnery throw-off shoot to go to action stations. It is an exercise for training the firing ship in the procedures for opening fire at a moving target. That is the likely explanation why there are no anti-flash hoods worn in NH69723. Many exercises for guns crews are carried out without the involvement of other crew members, or even other parts of the same department.

When "Actions Stations" are exercised all equipment is worn especially anti flash hoods and helmets in exposed positions, so that the men get used to operating with it in place, ready for the real thing.

Yes the light does indicate a time much later in the day, but who would be firing at Prinz Eugen? She was off out of it before Bismarck engaged Suffolk.

The debate about NH69722 has crossed into this thread and shouldn't have, so no wonder you are confused, but for the record the light in that photo is too high also to be dawn.

Vic Dale

[Olaf]

There would be no necessity for the target ship in a gunnery throw-off shoot to go to action stations. It is an exercise for training the firing ship in the procedures for opening fire at a moving target. That is the likely explanation why there are no anti-flash hoods worn in NH69723. Many exercises for guns crews are carried out without the involvement of other crew members, or even other parts of the same department.

So you're saying that it is an exercise for just holding the turrets on a moving target but not for shooting at it?

When "Actions Stations" are exercised all equipment is worn especially anti flash hoods and helmets in exposed positions, so that the men get used to operating with it in place, ready for the real thing.

This is exactly the same what I expressed in my previous post.

Yes the light does indicate a time much later in the day, but who would be firing at Prinz Eugen? She was off out of it before Bismarck engaged Suffolk.

I didn't mention or ask about who could be firing a PG, why are you asking?

The debate about NH69722 has crossed into this thread and shouldn't have, so no wonder you are confused, but for the record the light in that photo is too high also to be dawn.

I'm confused because I have that funny feeling that you are contradicting yourself when it comes to the anti-flash/exercise-or-not debate. Would you please so kind and explain again, just for me, why you are thinking the men are not wearing their anti-flash?

Best ~ Olaf!

[Vic Dale]

To Olaf.

Permit me to explain.

I believe the photo showing what are thought to be shells from Hood landing to starboard of PG NH69723 is a throw-off shoot. A throw-off shoot is where the sights of the firing ship are off-set by five or six degrees and fire is aimed directly at the target.

There are some clues.

The men are goofing and are clearly watching for shells to land to that side. So they are not at action stations. I would bet you never wore a forage cap or beret to action stations on the upper deck. It would be an anti-flash hood and a helmet for sure. The Denmark Strait is pretty cold and with the ship forging along at 27 knots the wind chill factor would be ferocious. This really does look like a spring exercise in the Baltic to me.

If the ship is being shelled by the deadly "Hood" scourge of the high seas and bete noir of many German sailors, those guys seem pretty relaxed to me. I know I would want the toilet with that flying over my head.

I have presented below a deliberately lightened copy of NH69723 below, so that you can see a bit more detail. To me the light seems to be coming from ahead, when it should be coming from port. 220 degrees heading at dawn? The forage caps are easily spotted and those guys do not seem to be hunched against the cold.

I don't think that sea would put much water over the bow either, when if you read the reports you will know that water coming in force over the bow was a problem for both squadrons. Also Bismarck was shipping it white over her fo'csle with every swell as can be seen in the battle film.

Vic Dale