Website 10th celebration - Bismarck May 18-21, 1941

[Herr Nilsson]

Hallo Antonio,
now you're confusing me. I thought they were using canvas on Prinz Eugen.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Marc and all,

..sorry for that,. let me try to summarize this now,...

No, as far as I have realized they used canvas only to temporarly cover the swastika banners ( on both ships ) and on the Bismarck secondary 150 mm turrets ( see Bismarck photos in GrimstadFjord ) to temporarly cover the Yellow tops and the air recognition markings.

For Bismarck and Prinz Eugen main turret flat surfaces they painted ON and OFF the YELLOW and the DARK GREY according to the needs and orders given by Adm Lutjens - Fleet.
Yellow ON leaving Gotenhafen until Norway Fjord waters, than OFF covering it with Dark Grey while anchored.
Paint back Yellow ON leaving Norway until out of Luftwaffe range, than OFF with Dark Grey ( including the 150 mm secondary turrets at this time as well as the swastika banners as ordered ).

Bismarck main gun barrel end of B and C turrets were yellow from Gotenhafen until Norway water area, than painted Dark Grey and never painted back yellow on the barrel end leaving Bergen Fjords area.

Prinz Eugen did not manage the main guns barrel end colouring process and used the ' B+C guns maximum elevation ' solution all the way thru.

As we can realize now, for same orders given from Adm Lutjens - Fleet to the ship commanders, Kpt Lindemann and Kpt Brinkmann executed differently.

This was common on other ships and situations as far as I have realized, more evident example being the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau on their records - history.

Ciao Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

Antonio,
but didn't you say they were using canvas on the turret tops for this purpose during Lütjens inspection?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Marc and all,

YES, and I confirm this occurrence, but this was done in Gotenhafen while anchored for Am Lutjens inspection on May 18th, 1941.

This is well reported on available photos ( one of those photo is even censored to remove this evidence as discovered by Olaf , .. and it is printed censored on F.O. Busch book : Prinz Eugen im ersten Gefecht ).

But apparently they did not use on Prinz Eugen those available canvas for the main turrets in Grimstad Fjord or Kalvanes bay during the short stop.

As said, probably painting ON and OFF a colour on top turrets flat main surfaces was assumed to be easier while in action.

Different story for the Bismarck 150 mm ones and the swastika banners as we can realize from the available evidences.

Ciao Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

Hi Antonio,
there is something I do not understand: what makes you sure they didn't use canvas on Prinz Eugen in Norway!

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Marc and all,

...I love your challenges Marc,.. I really love them , ... because they force me to double check everything before ,.. and also after , .. as you are very clever on your analysis and do not exitate to adress them to me, ... this is very positive.

We have the PG film and some photos that shows how the top flat surfaces of the Prinz Eugen main turrets were painted while on the bow the swastika banner was covered with canvas into Grimstad Fjord.

There was no canvas covering them as far as I can see, they were painted.

Than we have the film and photos that shows how those were when Prinz Eugen sailed out of Norway,,, either under Luftwaffe covered range,..and after when the swastika banner were covered and the bow chains blocked.

Putting together those available evidences determine and support the colouring evolution I have explained in the summary above.

Ciao Antonio

[RNfanDan]

I am enjoying all this, it is very interesting and I love watching an old mystery solved (I am a fan of "Cold Case Files"). Congratulations to Antonio for another excellent investigation!

I have two questions however, going back to the very beginning of Bismarck's arrival at Gdynia and her presence there between May 6-14:

1: Did the ship arrive at the Gdynia docks, already painted into her yellow top/dark grey edges on main turrets?

2: While the main turrets were dark gray edges and yellow flat tops, what were the secondary 5.9 turrets color? (They do not appear to have dark gray edges like the main turrets, but were they yellow at that time, or not until after AH review?)

Everything else makes perfect sense, and now I know how I will paint my future BS model. Too bad we don't have this kind of information on the hotly-disputed USS Arizona color issue!

My appreciation for the hard work done, and congratulations as well to José on this forum's anniversary!

Dan

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Dan and all,

thanks for the very nice compliments ....

Before May 5th, 1941 Bismarck was surely in Gdynia-Gotenhafen waters with full dark grey tops, both main turrets and secondary 150 mm ones as we can see on available colour photos and films.

As far as May 5th, 1941 status, here you can see 3 different available photos showing very clearly the C - Caesar main gun barrels end, front view and side view and now looking at those photos and knowing what we know, .... we know exactly what to look for, .... obvioulsy .

http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_di ... page_6.htm

The date is well known, the presence on the photo of AH, Adm Lutjens, Kpt Lindemann etc etc ... removes any doubt .... and now my question to you all is : which colour do you think were those C turret barrel ends ??

Hard work, ... research, ... and competences ... Happy Anniversary Jose' and the website - Forum !

Ciao Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

Antonio,
unfortunately I can't check the Prinz Eugen film, because I'm in holiday.
I'm not sure, but as far as I remember there were also canvas on the turret tops approaching the Korsfjord.
There is one scene (the one where they are covering the swastika??) in which it seems that little 'waves' are wandering over the top of Bruno. Once again, I'm not sure and I can't check it. If I'm wrong, please forget this posting.

[Bgile]

It's possible that they couldn't use the canvas on the MB turrets at sea because the increased wind would tend to get under them and rip them off or apart. Actually, muzzle blast overpressure might well do that.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Marc,

your point as usual is very interesting and just correctly addressed as usual

Here what I know and see, so we can try to understand what happened.

Prinz Eugen and Bismarck arrived into KorsFjord at 09.00 am on May 21st, 1941, reference Prinz Eugen KTB May 1941.

Prinze Eugen left Kalvanes bay to join Bismarck again into the Hjelte Fjord and get out of the Bergen Fjords area at 19.30 ( 07.30 pm ) on the same day, May 21st, 1941.

So we are discussing of 10 hours and 30 minutes timeframe into Grimstad Fjord first and Kalvanes bay after for the refuel from Wollin.

Prinz Eugen crew started painting over the main turrets dark grey sides already entering Grimstad Fjord as well documented by existing photos.

The baltic camouflage stripes from the ship was removed into Kalvanes bay referencing Prinz Eugen KTB.

Photos and video document that the swastika banners were covered with canvas on this period.

I took a look at the video portion you referenced above, and while I can clearly see the canvas on the swastika banner I can hardly understand what is going on with the sailors on top of B - Bruno turret. The top appear to be very clear, so still yellow probably as they were painting the dark grey turret side with light grey paint on that moment walking on the top turret as the other photo shows.

What they did to cover the yellow top flat surface while moving into Kalvanes bay for those hours we can only guess I suppose.

In Gotenhafen they ad covers. In Brest thay had covers on again, so they had them on board obviously .

Did they use the covers into Kalvanes bay ? Did they paint off the yellow with dark grey to paint the yellow back few hours later as Bismarck apparently did too ?

We can see on the photo I am proposing above sailors that are probably the painters walking on top of the main turrets as Prinz Eugen is out of Hjelte Fjord area and on the open sea, so this goes against the covers apparently.

In addittion Bgile point is well raised, the covers are ok if you are going to anchor for a long period into an harbour and without the need to put ON and OFF your air recognition marks so fast while sailing too.
The wind is a problem and also your weapons are roped too with a canvas on them that can fly away, so not 100 % perfect combat readiness if you follow my military reasoning.
Your turret sides are freshly painted too.

This is why I think they painted OFF and ON the Yellow with Dark grey as Bismarck did.

But still,..no close real evidences so far for Prinz Eugen into Kalvanes bay,..so I am not going to be surprised to discover something new about this particular situation as usual with those ships.

Ciao Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

Hi Antonio,
I'll be back on Sunday and then I'll watch my copy of the Prinz Eugen film once again.
I think it's just fair that you should know that there is one document, which seems to confirm your theory. I think Olaf can obtain and translate it for you, because he is also member in that forum where it is available. Unfortunately I can't do it because I'm browsing with my mobile phone. I don't know exactly what it is, because I can't open it.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Marc and all,

very good new , I am looking really forward to receive it and read it, .... obviously.

I have spent last years on this research, .. and you can imagine how ansciously I will wait a written confirmation to come.

So I will contact Olaf, .. about it.

Talk to you soon,..no problems.


Ciao Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

Hi Antonio,
it seems to be a Gkdos for Rheinuebung from April 41. The relevant information is: turret tops yellow in range of own fighting air force otherwise grey.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Marc and all,

WHOW ! ...this is what I mean for evidence,.... FANTASTIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think I have some of those documents myself too,... but I wait to see the scan of this one ,.. to print it and put it into a frame .

I am very happy now for all the hard work I put on this research,.. the long hours spent looking at any photo thinking how to resolve this enigma, .. because I reached this conclusion coming from very far away ..... as you all know now,... now with this unexpected confirmation .... I do feel very satisfyied.....

Thanks for the advise Marc,... I wait for Olaf now,...and for the document...

Meanwhile here the example for Prinz Eugen with air recognition colours ON and OFF, following that logic :



and the Z10 Hans Lody taken photo for everybody to see it :



and the Prinz Eugen just arrived into Grimstad Fjord with Bismarck on the background, notice the swastika banner covered with canvas and the light colour of turret Bruno.





Ciao Antonio