Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

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paulcadogan
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by paulcadogan »

Thanks for the replies Thomas, Antonio & Olaf.

I've seen all the diagrams of the colour schemes for both B & PE, but the fact is the photographic evidence at specific time periods must carry more weight.

There is no doubt that in the Norway photo the turret tops are much lighter (in B&W) than the rest of the ship - the same pattern on ALL four. This is also evident in the photo taken after the DS battle:

Image

The light colour can even be seen here on the aft 5.9-inch turret.

None of the diagrams of the two ships labelled as representing the DS appearance shows the turret tops as a colour that would appear in B&W as seen in the photographs. I think some re-consideration is due here...

If it is determined that it was definitely not yellow, then It would be more likely very light grey, as I said before like Scharnhorst....

Paul
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by Olaf »

Hi Paul ~ thanks for your input...

I think, it's a case of 'weighing the evidence'...

But, what evidence?
I fully agree that photos of the actual ship should do the job very well... but again, b/w photos are not really the best choice for trying to pin down a colour.

What do we have so far?

Pro yellow (while approaching France)...:
1. Survivor testimony - Mr Maus
2. Wireless message from British Admiralty to Rodney (who told the Admiralty...? The message - if I recall correctly - was received or sent on May 27, 09:20am ~ the morning after the fatal torpedo hit... didn't the Admiralty know this little unimportant fact?)
3. British eyewitnesses (can't remember from which ship...)
"Common practice" for operating within Luftwaffe range of the Atlantic theatre (?)

Con Yellow...:
1. Survivor testimony (Müllenheim-Rechberg and another one I can't remember...)
2. "Common practice" (see above) NOT before "Unternemen Barbarossa" (June 1941)
3. Mr. Maus apparently stated that the 15cm turrets were painted yellow but the paint was washed away by waves and spray. This leads nicely to the question, how on earth, with the ship rolling etc. in those waves, could someone be able to paint the higher located main turret tops? Must have been a dangerous job. Did they have the chance to attach safety lines ON TOP of the turrets? I know the Tirpitz photos, where they are painting the turret tops at sea, but this sea is very calm...
4. If I remember correctly, Mr. Maus seem to have been all over the place. I can't remember where I read it, but he was in place when they tried to investigate the rudder damage from inside, he was the one who painted turret tops yellow, he was the one, who saw Lindemann for the last time... you know, what I'm getting at? Of course, I have no evidence for this, it could have been just in my memory from reading those discussion over and over again...

Ok, back to the photos:
First of all, I ever thought, we are talking about the horizontal surfaces only and not the sloped sides...
The lighter shade on the sloped sides of the turrets could be the result of the lighting conditions - even if the sky is overcast. Light grey instead of yellow? No. The superstructure, painted in Hellgrau 50>RAL 7001 was in fact very light. A colour lighter than that would have been RAL 9016 (Aluminiumbronze for the funnel cap) - or white. Many b/w photos show the Hellgrau 50 as a very light colour, when exposed to direct sunlight, it even could appear white!

Maybe this is not all from the pros & cons, but it's a starting point.
Again, back to the question of the yellow turret tops during the whole time in Norway:
Leaving the Baltic for Norway with either red or dark grey tops, painting them yellow for that short stay in Norway, then repainting them for leaving the Norway Luftwaffe range ~ all of that seems to me ... work for the birds... in lack of a better impression...

The crewmen painting and repainting again and again were for sure not very happy with this, eh?

I still like the idea of coloured canvas for (planned) short stays in the Luftwaffe range... (which doesn't really answer the question what they did on BS approaching Brest...)

I know, I know... so many times 'if', 'when' and 'could'...

Will this ever be solved?

Best ~ Olaf
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Olaf and all,

in my personal opinion I consider the YELLOW ( RAL 1003 ) top turrets approaching France on the Bismarck a question closed time ago, when we found the HMS Rodney war diary radio message received from Adm Tovey the morning of May 27th, 1941.
Maybe some details can be added ( secondary turrets ? ), but the question seems to me well resolved, both the flat and the sloped surfaces were painted yellow on main turrets during the last battle.

Now the real question is about the movements between Gdynia ( Gotenhafen ) and Bergen, and than out of Bergen after the re-painting and while still under the Luftwaffe range,.. than after having sailed out of the German air coverage range.

For the Prinz Eugen I have found already enough informations to release the drawings I made and everybody can see the way it was painted.

For the Bismarck, logic would dictate that being an Operation involving the 2 ships plus the 3 destroyers ( Z23, Z10 Hans Lody and Z 16 Friedrich Eckoldt ) ,.. it must have been the same,.. as obvious,.. but I am still working on evidences and findings, ... but do not get surprised if in the future news will arise :wink: :wink: .

As I did with Tirpitz infos, with Scharnhorst ( nobody beleived the dark grey was not the last camo when I started researching it, now everybody knows the last camo of Scharnhorst :wink: ) and some other ships camouflages and air recognition markings,...... also here an historical research must be conducted,...before saying the last word.

Those ships will always surprise you,.. when good photos and new evidences properly researched and well analyzed will tell us the story.

Ciao Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by paulcadogan »

That's one of the great traits of Antonio - always an open mind to consider new ideas and interpretations based on evidence and logic! :clap:

Here's a consideration regarding re-painting at sea between May 21 and 27...

Between May 21 in Bergen and entry to the DS, B & PE were generally steaming in rough, thick weather - not conducive to external paint work. In the DS, the risk of encountering British ships increased greatly - and they did - not a good time to have sailors climbing on turrets painting. After the DS - with British ships in pursuit, the same would apply. After shaking off the S, N & PoW, things might have been more "peaceful" for such activity, but not really - they could never know when a ship might be sighted or air attack develop. Again not a good idea to have sailors painting turrets - although, granted, some efforts were made to erect a dummy stack, so painting could have been attempted.

One idea could be a colour reversal - what if the turrets were yellow all along (as might have been based on the above photos) and in approaching France - having to pass close to Britain in range of British land-based aircraft, the attempt was really to paint out the yellow to make it harder for them to identify Bismarck as German? This then failed for the reasons given - rough seas etc. The result would be yellow turret tops at the last battle as well.... Just a thought!

The only people who saw Bismarck up close between DS and the final battle would have been Victorious' pilots and to a lesser extent, observers in the USCGC Modoc. I wonder if any of them recorded their recollections in this regard.

Paul
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by Olaf »

Nice idea, Paul...

On the other hand, the BS war diary which can be downloaded here indicates on page 122, which I guess comes from the PG and was just borrowed for this diary...)...:

"Alarm ended. Afterwards, by order of the Fleet, the aircraft identification markings on the turrets and the national emblems [swastikas] on the forecastle and quarter [poop] deck to be painted over."

This entry is from the 22. May 1941.

The problem now is... is ths really written in the actually PG war diary?
If so, the turrets were during the entire Norway stay yellow.

Interesting, that all sources say that the swastikas were painted over in the fjords... and not a day later, May 22, while at sea...

Just more food for thought ~ Olaf
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Olaf, Paul and all,

many thanks Paul,.... you are too nice with me,.. :oops:

Well found Olaf,..... that is just a confirmation of what I was saying and I am happy you found it, ..I never looked into that yet so this one is for you my friend :clap:

So now we know that at 13.07 of 22 May 1941 Admiral Lutjens ( Fleet means order from him on PG KTB :wink: ) ordered both ships to paint over the air recognition markings ( and I can tell you it was Yellow RAL 1003 :D ).

Now it is very easy to realize they were there all the way thru from Gotenhafen till out of Luftwaffe range, on May 22nd at 13.07, it is proved by Film, photos and now also from the Prinz Eugen KTB,.. for the Prinz Eugen is 100% sure .. for the Bismarck, ... we just need the right photos and film sequence maybe to reach the 100 %, .. let's hope in the close future.

In fact photos and film shows Prinz Eugen in Grimstad Fjord with canvas on top of the swastika banners,.. and theh turrets painted the way I showed you on my drawings with Abram Joslin,... the banner being painted over only on high seas,.. later on when the anchor chains were blocked,..and now we can say it was after 13.07 of May 22nd, 1941.

Too easy to imagine the same for Bismarck,..we just miss the image evidences now,... the order for her as well we already have on PG KTB ... signed by the Flottenchef Admiral Lutjens,... :wink:

Very funny to say that the orders to resolve this '' YELLOW '' mistery, .. were both given by 2 Admirals,.. Lutjens and Tovey,... and it was by making analysis on the photos of Adm Lutjens on board Prinz Eugen at Gotenhafen for the review that I found out about Prinz Eugen having YELLOW tops,..... very funny... :wink:

... but I am almost sure Bismarck will surprise us,....as usual,.... I know those ships,..... be ready to be surprised ... :wink:

Ciao Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by Olaf »

Ciao Antonio ~ you wrote...
Antonio Bonomi wrote: Well found Olaf,..... that is just a confirmation of what I was saying and I am happy you found it, ..I never looked into that yet so this one is for you my friend :clap:
Well, I read this again, this time a copy of the PG war diary on the Hood Association website...
The problem is now what can be seen in the film and photos you mentioned? Did you get my e-mail about this?
( and I can tell you it was Yellow RAL 1003 :D ).
Thanks, just what I thought... :D
Now it is very easy to realize they were there all the way thru from Gotenhafen till out of Luftwaffe range, on May 22nd at 13.07, (...)
Eeeehhh... so no red or dark grey when leaving Gotenhafen? BALTIC?

I still have to figure out when they did what.
What - either for PG or BS - was the colour on departing Gotenhafen? Red or dark grey, covered with canvas? Why covered when still in the Baltic?
What - either for PG or BS - was the colour on transit to Norway? (Let's say, after entering the North Sea...)
What - either for PG or BS - was the colour during the stay in Norway? Turret tops repainted during the stay?
What - either for PG or BS - was the colour on departing Norway? According to the war diary: Something. Presumably yellow. Overpainted on May 22.

If there are no colour photos, I guess it is nearly impossible to make a distinction between dark grey and red. Yellow could it only be, when the colour does NOT appear dark in b/w photos, right?
... but I am almost sure Bismarck will surprise us,....as usual,.... I know those ships,..... be ready to be surprised ... :wink:
This doesn't really make the waiting time easier... HA!

BTW, in a previous post, I mentioned Aluminiumbronze RAL 9016... of course, it should be Aluminiumbronze 16 RAL 9006... confusing numbers... (there is no way to edit a message in this forum?)

Cheers ~ Olaf
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by paulcadogan »

Hi my friends,

I've been looking for more photographic evidence and found this one taken from the air allegedly taken while Bismarck was on her way to Grimstadtfiord...

Image

As you can see, the horizontal part of the turret roof is DARK - dark grey or red as Olaf said?
Were the sloped surfaces yellow or was this painted on later over the whole top? The puzzle deepens....

This other photo taken after the DS battle shows the sloped surfaces looking a little lighter than the vertical, but with much less of a contrast than in the broadside shot. The top of the aft 5.9 STILL looks very light while the mid and forward look the same as the rest of the superstructure. Could the paint-over on the 22nd have been incomplete or partially washed off by heavy seas and/or rain before the paint could dry?

Image
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by paulcadogan »

In this last one, the sloped face of Turret Bruno looks very light compared to to slope of the bridge immediately behind and the rest of the superstructure which should have been better illuminated:

Image

Or am I pushing my imagination? :stubborn:

Paul
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Antonio,

sorry, I'm not convinced. Please read the Schmalenbach letter.
Page 3 II. a).
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Marc

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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by paulcadogan »

Thanks for that great link Herr Nilsson. But I think it had added to the confusion!

With all due respect to Paul Schmalenbach, his statement that Bismarck retained the dark grey at the bow and stern and the false stern wave is not borne out in the many photos of Bismarck in the DS. Her hull appears almost uniform with a very slight hint of the painted over stripes, with only the false bow wave remaining. The very first photo of this thread shows this as does this one:

Image

His statement that PE's hull was painted over is supported by this shot of her coming into Brest. The weathering of 10 days at sea has washed off the paint at her bow to show the earlier dark grey below:

Image

Paul
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Paul,

in case of Bismarck his memory is obviously wrong, but what about the yellow turret tops? He says "no" and we can't ignore this, I think.
By the way, there are three additional letters, which are very, very interesting regarding the yellow-turret-top-issue:

Jung-Letter
Müllenheim-Rechberg-Letter
Smith-Letter
Regards

Marc

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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by Olaf »

Hey folks ~ I’m attaching a few photos showing PG during Rheinübung. I hope I got the sequence in the correct order.

These three were taken at Gotenhafen, in the larger versions you can clearly see a LIGHT cover on a LIGHT underground - and you can see the 'straps' holding the canvas in place much clearer. We believe, it is a light grey cover on a yellow surface. A red surface would possibly appear darker:
Image

This one seems to have been taken when entering the Norwegian waters. They are doing something on the f’c’sle and the top of the turret appears much lighter than the other Hellgrau 50 horizontal surfaces in this picture: It contradicts to the PG war diary where it says that the order to paint them over came on May 22. But, in the distance you still can see the Norwegian coastline… a tricky one…maybe, in this sequence, it should come at a later stage…
Image

On this one, the f’c’sle insignia is still visible.
Image

This one shows the process of painting over the splinter pattern on turret “A”…
Note the “shine” of the sloped surface. Freshly painted?
What are the guys doing on top of the turret?
Image

This one shows the Prinz underway…
Note the guys on turrets “B”, “C” and “D”…
Image

My favourite:
Over-painting seems to be completed. Maybe shortly taken after the previous one, not the slightly elevated gun barrels of turret “B”… horizontal surface now in “Dunkelgrau 2”…
Image

And, finally, the arrival at Brest…
Please not the slightly ‘curved’ upper edge of the fwd sloped surface. A shadow? Maybe caused by a bit of wind blowing under a canvas which is covering the yellow or dark grey? In other photos, this ‘edge’ appears dead straight…
Image


Ok, now I would be very delighted to hear your opinions...

Cheers ~ Olaf
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by paulcadogan »

Great stuff Herr Nilsson & Olaf.....

A couple of points:

In the letter by Mr. Jung he states that the yellow turret colour was authorized in June 1941 for Barbarrosa, but this contradicts the line drawings that show Blucher having yellow turret tops during the invasion of Norway in 1940:

Image

So the plot thickens......

The picture posted by Olaf showing the glistening paint on PE's turret might have bearing on the photos that suggest a lighter colour for these surfaces on Bismarck. The paint may have been wet in the picture, but if it was dry it may have retained some level of gloss making it more reflective than the rest of the ship. If the same grey paint was used on both ships - and it seems that yellow was not used at all according to the eyewitnesses in the links - we have an explanation for the effects in the pictures.

Paul
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Re: Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Olaf, Marc, Paul and all,

I am very happy about so many competent and fair persons are joining this discussion, surely we will have a very productive discussion and analysis knowing well all of you guys, I hope many others will join as I am sure the argument is interesting for the majority of us.

This said lets go into the analysis.

I will provide you my view and personal opinion and we can compare.

I have a lot of respect for the survivor opinions, but I do know that many times their memories is not precise enough, as I had dozens of examples personally.

@ Marc,

I read those letters many times, but I am not convinced about them.
Evidences show things differently, unfortunately for them and their memories :( , and many other witnesses say other things too, so I have to trust first the real evidences I can find on photos and films, and correlate backwards.

Lets take Prinz Eugen top turrets colous evolution.

I think you all would agree that on the photos attached at Gotenhafen on May 18th, 1941 the canvas covering the top flat surfaces is covering a very light colour and it is not Light Grey, as it would not make any common sense.
You can tell me the colour, it cannot be Red, it cannot be Dark Grey like the sloped parts.

Than the ship arrived into Bergen sailing all the way thru with that turret camo scheme, sloped parts on Dark Grey, the top flat main turret surfaces on a light camo colour for air identification, previously covered into the harbour with the canvas, and according to me it was Yellow.
Of course the ship had the swastika banners painted on bow and stern.

The Prinz Eugen arrrived into Bergen Fjords, and already at Grimstad Fjord they started re-painting off the Baltic camo scheme, but on the main turrets they only painted over the sloped parts with light grey, the top flat surface was left as it was, so still Yellow.
The photo above posted by Olaf were you can also see Bismarck into the Grimstad fjord do show a very light colour still on top of the main turrets, on the other photo the Prinz Eugen sailors are only painting the sloped parts of the main turrets, nobody is painting the flat top surface.
The swastika banners were covered with canvas, and it is proved with photos and films.

The Prinz Eugen sailed out with Bismarck, they removed the canvas covers from the swastika's and the ship was ready again to sail under the Luftwaffe air coverage with yellow top's.

At 13.07 on May 22nd, 1941 the order came from Admiral Lutjens to paint off the air recognition marking.

The job was done and both the swastika banners and the top flat surfaces of the main turrets were painted off ( with a dark grey ) while at sea, the bow anchor chains were blocked with a smaller chain going into the rings of the main chains as you can see on the photo attached by Olaf were you can see the Prinz Eugen forecaste from the top.

Now if you can tell me why they painted the flat top surface of the turrets with a much darker colour to remove an air identification colour at sea if it was not there, I can try to follow you, ... but it will be very hard to explain it unless over there as I am saying the colour was light and not a light grey and it was a colour used for the air recognition that started from Gotenhafen protected with canvas as proved with the initial Prinz Eugen photos at Gotenhafen.

When Prinz Eugen entered Brest first thing they did was to cover the top of the turrets flat surfaces with a canvas they had,..from Gotenhafen,..guess which colour they had under it,..... :D

Can you tell me now which colour it can be ? To me there is only one answer,..and it is Yellow ...just like the one previously used by Adm Lutjens for Op. Berlin on January 1941 with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau,.. doing exactly the same thing,.. Germany, Norway coast and than breacking into the Atlantic ocean, .... succesfully :wink: .

Yellow was also used on Op. Weserubung as Paul showed with my drawing of Blucher :D .

But at this point on May 1941,..the KM ships had already used 3 top turrets colour options : Yellow, Red ( also on Weserubung as demonstrated on colour photos of SH and Gu ) and Dark Grey for Op. Juno on June 1940.

After having hopefully reached a common agreement on Prinz Eugen top turrets colours evolution,.. we can move to Bismarck,.. that started Op. Rheinubung with that top turret camo scheme showed by Paul on the above attached photo,..... and as of today everybody thinks it was Dark Grey, ..... but we need to know more,.. much more,.. :wink:

....... so get ready to be surprised, ..... one day,... :D

Ciao Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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