Paintwork Query

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Gisbod
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Paintwork Query

Post by Gisbod »

Hello All,

New to the forum!

I’ve always been fascinated by the Bismarck story and I’m currently building the Trumpeter 1/200 kit which has re infused my interest!

I was wondering if someone could help with this image of an area of paint from a wreck dive video?

Image

My question is that I can’t place the lower, brighter white rhomboid stepped below the boot line? I know there was a step around the false bow waves, but this seems to be by a ‘Baltic Stripe’. I realise these were painted over but this still seems very noticeable though. I don’t know if the over paint has faded or this is how she presented at the time.

But the seemingly un-overpainted bright white area is perplexing me along with the ‘step’. I can’t seem to visualise that against any photos or colour schemes?

Any ideas?

Many thanks,

Guy

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Bill Jurens
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by Bill Jurens »

It's almost impossible to decipher these sorts of things from a single image. (I can tell you from experience that it's often quite difficult even in real time to determine anything with a high degree of certainty. Do you have any other images in the sequence? Often, if you take two closely-spaced images one can fuse them into a stereo-pair, which gives you some idea of a third dimension. Also, it would help if you had, or could provide, a better idea of about where on the wreck this image was taken.

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by Herr Nilsson »

The baltic stripes were painted in harbor when the ship was in a light condition. In Norway Bismarck was still near full load condition. When the stripes were overpainted a part of them was still under water and couldn't be overpainted. The didn't use waterline grey on the waterline put overpainted it with hull grey. However, the grey of this paint job is slightly darker than the older hull grey.
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Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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José M. Rico
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by José M. Rico »

Bill, the photo in question is on your Bismarck book, page 488.
"Nonpenetrating Shell strikes on the 320-mm belt armor". COURTESY OF JAMES CAMERON.
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by Bill Jurens »

Thank you Jose:

As I hardly ever read my own work, I frankly didn't notice. Using that information, I may be able to find out a bit more about precisely where that image was taken. The white material may -- and I have to emphasis the MAY -- be some sort of mold. There is a lot of that scattered at various points around the wreck -- it seems to be very happy in some places and totally absent in others. Most of it seems to be inside; it will fill one compartment completely, while the compartment on either side doesn't contain any at all. As we didn't take any samples, and didn't have a fully-qualified marine biologist aboard, we really were not able to identify exactly what it was.

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by Herr Nilsson »

As I said before, the stripes could only be overpainted to the water level:
stripe s.jpg
stripe s.jpg (32.61 KiB) Viewed 2109 times
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Gisbod
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by Gisbod »

Ah thanks,

Apologies for the late reply, I thought I was still waiting for my post to be approved!

I did have a viable answer from someone on my build thread. It’s probably easier to post the link and let him describe his logic, but it does sound convincing to me! What do you think?


https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/ind ... nt=4142402


Guy
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by Gisbod »

Apparently, now I have the grand total of 2 posts to my name, I’m allowed to post without being approved!

I’m sure these images have been discussed at length, but thoughts on turret colours in this image? As per what the author says? Would they have been painted out along with the superstructure stripes? I’m building mine with hull stripes but not superstructure ones. It would be great to add some colour to the turrets to add interest if feasible?

The variations of colour schemes are bonkers in its short life. They must have had a job lot of paint and idle hands!

Hopefully not copyrighted? It’s freely available on the net..


Guy



Image


Image
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello Mr.Gisbod,
I agree, crazy changes of colors during this period, possibly experimental schemes were being tried (date of caption is correct: March 8, 1941).
'Fliegersichtzeichen' (air recognition marks') were red at that time. This implies that all turrets tops should have been painted red.
No black on turrets: the black is just for baltic stripes and mainmast.

IMHO, sloped parts red for secondary armament and gray for main turrets (difficult however to distinguish red from dark gray). 'A' and 'D' turrets with medium gray slopes and barrels (possibly RAL 7000), while 'B' and 'C' with dark gray slopes and barrels (RAL 7024), but barrels red where superimposed to 'A' and 'D' red roofs.
According to S.Draminski, only 'A' and 'D' have red tops, all others dark gray, while slopes were gray (medium for 'A' and 'D' and dark for all others). Barrels as above.
I also have doubts in this scheme about main turret rangefinder hoods, that according to previous schemes should have been painted red as well.

Is anybody able to confirm ?

hans
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by Gisbod »

Thanks Hans,

Yes, that’s interesting. Studying the photo without any other knowledge, red top, medium grey slopes for Anton and dark grey slopes and top for Bruno seems plausible (even likely!). I may go with that, I just need to believe that they left the turrets after the superstructure was painted out.

I could argue it’s the moment they finished over painting the superstructure and just before they started the turrets! :D


Guy
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by Gisbod »

Ps

And the barrels red for Bruno too, that would look great! But you also think the secondary armament was red topped? It looks more dark grey to me, but as you say, difficult to establish in the photo…

Guy
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello Guy,
I agree Bruno top and slopes look uniform dark gray. However this would make no sense, as air recognition marks should have been applied to all turrets, secondary included.

One key question for you: on which exact date are you representing Bismarck? You mention painted out superstructure but this was done only quite later on May 21, when color for 'Fliegersichtzeichen' was yellow (not red) anymore for all main and secondary turrets (tops only). Also slopes for main turrets were dark gray on May 5 (yellow tops as well) but light gray (RAL 7001) after mid May (secondary turrets slopes always light gray). Barrel ends followed yellow tops until May 22, when they were left uniform (dark) gray till sinking. (source: S.Draminski).

hans
Gisbod
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by Gisbod »

Thanks Hans,

I haven’t decided yet, just that I wanted to do the Hull stripes but the superstructure ones are tricky to do.. so turret tops post painting thing over of the superstructure is limited to dark grey?

Guy
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hi Guy,
I suspected this was your choice, but be aware Bismarck was like that only for very short period of time (very few hours on May 21 in Grimstadfjord, while repainting was not completed yet). I attach photo.
09_375.jpg
09_375.jpg (59.02 KiB) Viewed 1934 times
So, hull medium gray (RAL 7000) with baltic stripes and dark (RAL 7024) bow and stern + white waves; superstructure RAL 7001; main turrets RAL 7001 including slopes with dark gray roofs (RAL 7024 painted over previous yellow 'Fliegersichtzeichen'); secondary turrets RAL 7001 with roofs and slopes covered with dark gray tarpaulins (hiding existing yellow below); bow and stern flags (svastikas) covered with (possibly medium RAL 7000) gray tarpaulins; barrels were dark gray (RAL 7024) for all guns but for 'B' and 'C' their ends were repainted (over existing yellow) and fresh paint look darker than old paint.

Yellow was back on turrets roofs when exiting Grimstadfjord and sailing North, but at that point baltic stripes were painted over on hull too.

hans
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: Paintwork Query

Post by hans zurbriggen »

P.S. Main & secondary turrets rangefinders hoods tops were painted yellow as well at that time, and were painted gray (or covered with gray tarpaulins) during above repaint.

P.P.S. ERRATA CORRIGE: side slopes of seconday armament were painted light gray (RAL 7001) at that time (after April 1941), thus gray tarpaulins only on yellow tops.

hans
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