RN USN and IJN ships

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paul.mercer
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RN USN and IJN ships

Post by paul.mercer » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:26 am

Gentlemen,
I another topic we discussed the point that many of the battleships of the main navies RN, USN and IJN were fairly elderly, so if we exclude the Yamato's, Iowa's and KGV's, and concentrate on the WWI vintage and any of their rebuilds up to around the early 1930's, how did they really compare with each other and how would they fare if pitted against each other? (I'm including the RN Nelsons QE's and R's whether some were rebuilt or not)

Steve Crandell
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Re: RN USN and IJN ships

Post by Steve Crandell » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:35 am

USN BBs were significantly slower than the others, and I think a bit more heavily armored.

The Nelsons were in a class by themselves, being newer than the others you listed. Not sure what that means in combat potential. They were obviously quite different ships.

paul.mercer
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Re: RN USN and IJN ships

Post by paul.mercer » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:03 am

Thanks for your reply Steve,
I can't imagine anything much slower than an 'R'!
As for combat potential, i'm sorry I did not make myself clear, what I meant is how would they fare in a battle against each other, for instance a modified QE against a comparable US or IJN ship, if the 'Nelsons' were too new to be taken into consideration.

OpanaPointer
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Re: RN USN and IJN ships

Post by OpanaPointer » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:30 am

USN OBBs were not expected to exceed ~20 kts.

Steve Crandell
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Re: RN USN and IJN ships

Post by Steve Crandell » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:56 pm

I think the 16" ships were clearly superior to the others. Having said that, in theory the British and Japanese could choose not to fight the US ships.

Other than that, I don't think there is much to choose between the different BBs. They could all defeat their opposite numbers. When you get BB size shells going back and forth, most anything can happen, I think.

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Re: RN USN and IJN ships

Post by HMSVF » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:00 pm

Steve Crandell wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:56 pm
I think the 16" ships were clearly superior to the others. Having said that, in theory the British and Japanese could choose not to fight the US ships.

Other than that, I don't think there is much to choose between the different BBs. They could all defeat their opposite numbers. When you get BB size shells going back and forth, most anything can happen, I think.

Wouldn’t a lot depend on the material state of the ships? Ok the Q.E’s recieved modifications when they were brought in but I always get the impression that the RN ran their ships quite hard? The R’s were probably very nearly worn out by WW2 and didn’t Repulse have the same machinery as built when she was sunk?

I suppose the question would be when comparing is at what time?
If it’s say 1920 I’d argue there is not much between them. If it’s after say 1930 then I tentatively argue that the material differences would be greater. I wouldn’t want to be facing, say a Fuso in an R class. Fuso would be able to out range and outrun one and dictate any battle. The R would be nobbled by 20 degree elevation and a realistic speed of say 19 knots?

Unless by miracle the R comes across Fuso at night,foul weather or fog it would be a thoroughly miserable engagement for the RN

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marcelo_malara
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Re: RN USN and IJN ships

Post by marcelo_malara » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:30 pm

No US BB developed more than 40.000 hp before the North Carolina class, most not even 30.000 hp, that´s why they were so slow.

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Steve Crandell
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Re: RN USN and IJN ships

Post by Steve Crandell » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:42 pm

marcelo_malara wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:30 pm
No US BB developed more than 40.000 hp before the North Carolina class, most not even 30.000 hp, that´s why they were so slow.

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By way of comparison, the Cleveland class CLs had about 100,000 shp.

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marcelo_malara
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Re: RN USN and IJN ships

Post by marcelo_malara » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:19 pm

I don´t know if BB and cruiser machinery can be easily compared. Power (hp) is the product of torque and rotational speed (in radians per second). BBs had big and slow turning propellers, while cruisers had smaller and faster turning ones, I am not sure that a cruiser turbine geared to a BB propeller would do the same.

Anyway, the USN BBs had lower (in some cases much lower) power that their foreign contemporaries.

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Re: RN USN and IJN ships

Post by Fatboy Coxy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:20 pm

Ok, mostly using Wikipedia and NavWeapons, I’m just looking at the matchup between Britain’s worst active battleship and Japan’s for the opening six months of the Pacific War, although both navies had been engaged in war for the previous nearly four and a half years in Japan’s case, and well over two years in Britain’s in a much more intense naval war

Revenge was the first R class with the eastern fleet, which is why I chose her as the British example. Built between in 1913-16, she saw action in the first world war, including Jutland. After that her upgrades were somewhat minimal, but included big improvements in her anti-aircraft suite, adding torpedo bulges, and at about the same time as the outbreak of the Pacific war, radar was added. Late February 1942 saw the fitting of Type 273 surface warning, and type 284 fire control for main armament, 284 could ‘see’ a battleship at 26,000 yds in 1941. She was then deployed to the Eastern Fleet.

She carried four twin turrets with the 15-inch Mk I gun. She didn’t have the modifications to her main battery turrets, meaning her barrel elevation was still only 20 degrees. This gave her a maximum range of only 23,700 yds. Starting in late 1941, ships not modified to 30-degree elevation were given a ‘super charge’ to increase their range to 28,700 yds, but I’m not sure Revenge had these that early. Penetration at maximum range was supposedly 9 inches armour, optimum, but in real life probably quite a bit less than this. These guns, at 17,50 yds did great damage to the French battleship Bretagne, but probably were only penetrating armour up to a maximum of 6 inches.

Armour was 13 inches on waterline belt, turrets had 11-13 inches, decks only 4 inches. Her top speed could be as much as 21½ knots (11Oct1940) but probably 20 knots was a normal maximum. Her condition wasn’t particularly good, her electrical system was in a poor condition, and her hull was badly stressed from years of heavy use.

Fuso class battleships Fuso and Yamashiro were built between 1912-17, thus being contemporaries of the Revenge class. They were built with six twin turrets, armed with the 14-inch guns. They both had a couple of extensive reconstructions, turret elevation improved, adding torpedo bulges, with significant improvements both their AA suite, and armour. Their boilers and turbines replaced improving their speed from 23 to 24.7 knots in speed trials, so fully loaded I’d guess they had a 2-3 knot speed advantage over the Revenge’s 20 knots. Armour was 9-12 inches on the waterline belt, turrets up to 11-inches, deck armour up to 4.5-inches.

The 14-inch gun was also used on the Kongo and Ise classes, and with a massive 43-degree turret elevation, had a theoretical range of 38,700 yards, quite what the accuracy was at that range I’ve no idea. I also have no idea of their shell’s penetration capabilities either. Their optical range finders were probably the best you could get, but they had no radar at this stage of the war.

In a single ship on ship matchup, you have to give it to the Fuso class, who have better speed and vastly out range the British ship, meaning they could stand off and wait until they have sufficiently degraded the Revenge before closing in to administer the coup de grace. Only in a scenario where the Fuso has to remain at station, allowing the Revenge to close does the British ship have a chance.

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Fatboy Coxy
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