Black objects in GrimstadFjord

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Pieter C
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Black objects in GrimstadFjord

Post by Pieter C » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:38 pm

Hi,

I think anybody reading up on the history of Bismarck will have come across the photo taken of Bismarck from Prinz Eugen. (http://www.kbismarck.com/photo002.html) It is now for a long while that the black object/ spot near the stern, below Caesar turret, has puzzled me. What is it? Looks like it could be two of the same objects hanging over the side.
bis2.jpg
bis2.jpg (10.49 KiB) Viewed 454 times
Is it the same thing as in this photo?
side1.jpg
side1.jpg (3.59 KiB) Viewed 454 times
Pieter

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Re: Black objects ingrimstg Fjord

Post by dunmunro » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:58 pm

The 2nd photo look like a paravane, which were used to sweep for mines.

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wadinga
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Re: Black objects ingrimstg Fjord

Post by wadinga » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:09 am

Hi Pieter C,

My best guess is that the first, which is just aft of the lowered companionway is a fender or fenders for when a vessel comes alongside, being lowered to the water surface.

The second looks like a temporary garbage chute for dumping stuff over the side, so it didn't stain the hull, they weren't too bothered about marine pollution back then.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Black objects ingrimstg Fjord

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:12 pm

1.) Oil stain. The left blotch is just below the fuel transfer door in the 145 mm belt.
2.) Garbage chute.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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wadinga
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Re: Black objects ingrimstg Fjord

Post by wadinga » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:35 pm

Hi Herr Nilsson,

Spot on "spot" on the after fuel hatch and associated stain. :clap: :clap: :clap: Herr Hawkeye!

The double mark is also observable in the beam-on shot after Denmark Strait when Bismarck's bows are buried deep in a wave, so it never got cleaned off. Is it a manifestation of the fuelling accident which meant that the ship was not fully "topped off" before leaving Gotenhafen? Fuel control stations are shown inboard of these four small rectangular hatches, but did fuel lines enter the side of the hull, or are the hatches more like overside overflows?

Given the cumbersome nature of the heavy gauge hoses requiring their flanges to be bolted up, they are usually handled on the upper deck, and often so seen during Refuelling at sea operations.

Going back to the painting theme, the full size bis2 shot also shows the painting stages for the midships and forward black/white stripes already deployed although apparently unoccupied .

Still interesting things to be found.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: Black objects in GrimstadFjord

Post by Pieter C » Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:33 pm

Hi,

Wadinga, Bismarck had to enter Gotenhafen to have her one crane fixed. To enter the shallow harbor she had to lighten her oil in the road stead. After the crane was fixed she refueled again in the road stead. Near the end of the refueling a refuel pipe burst in the refueling room, instant swimming pool, and spilled about 200 tonnes. Once cleanup was done, time was up to finish refueling and she left with the spill amount short.

"four small rectangular hatches" A source I have indicted that it is connection point for water & electricity. There is also a photo near the end of the fitting out period showing a pipe entering the rear starboard point. One reason why I don't believe this is a refueling point, is the lack of rungs form deck to the hatch, making open sea refueling impossible. (They are also inline with the back of Bruno & Caesar barbettes.) The one near the 2 spots are about 2 m to the left.

The 2 spots outline, is to defined for me to be fuel spill on a vertical surface ( no run offs). I don't think it is fenders, as they are bigger than the 4 hanging near the water line on the port side. Unless the garbage chutes fold in halve, probably also not that. Reproduction and resolutions of photo's have improved a lot on the internet and PCs over the years. Today you see a lot more detail on the same photo than even 10 years ago. There are at least 4 photos at different angles of Bismarck starboard side in Grimstad Fjord showning the black objects. On the one it look to me as they have used one of the Jacob ladder chains to hang these objects over the side. You can just make the chains faintly out on the one photo.
Bisspot.jpg
Friday I was searching for info on how refueling was done on the German capital ships. Except for one vague discussion in 2010, nothing so far. I came across a site and found a photo that looks like it might be an answer. The web site Historyphotos.org have a quite a few photos of Bismarck. Some of the photo's are the standard fare found on the internet, But it include the other photo's of a sequence. (Internet will show photo 12 and they will also have 9-11 & 13 to 14 for e.g.) There is a photo of 2 big hatches to the right of the starboard door way ( cross the rear Jacobs ladder). The left hatch has a latch to keep the hatch open when it was opened. Below it, on the deck, it looks like a possible oil spot. (Series of photos from Caesar turret up to the rear 15cm turret.)

Pieter

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Black objects in GrimstadFjord

Post by Herr Nilsson » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:08 am

Behind the doors are pretty big rooms (~3x4 m). Each of these rooms had a valve box with 4 couplings for 135 mm oil hoses.

Refueling at port or in the roads by tankers alongside by using the valve boxes behind the doors.

Refueling at sea usually by using the valve box at forecastle and being towed by the tanker. Bismarck and Prinz Eugen exercised it in reversed order with Bismarck as the supplying ship behind Prinz Eugen.

The garbage chutes could be taken apart and were stored near the catapult passage way.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

Pieter C
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Re: Black objects in GrimstadFjord

Post by Pieter C » Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:15 pm

The snippet that went AWOL in the previous post
Bisspot.jpg
Bisspot.jpg (25.85 KiB) Viewed 305 times


Marc where on the forecastle would the valve be?
Was wondering where the garbage chutes would be store. Seems there was 2 garbage chute sets and a wheelbarrow or two on the 2 BS.

Pieter

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Black objects in GrimstadFjord

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:17 pm

Marc where on the forecastle would the valve be?
~frame 201-202
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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