Lutzow vs. US heavy cruiser

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Lutzow vs. US heavy cruiser

Post by RF »

How would the panzerschiff fire power compare with the WW2 US heavy cruisers? In a one on one meeting would the 8 inch armament of US ships be expected to do better than say a British County Class cruiser?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

I believe it will be more or less the scenario for River Plate: the 11" guns of the panzerschiffe vs. the lighter 8". There´s just too much difference.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Lutscha
Member
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:20 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Lutscha »

The Americans can easily penetrate Lützow´s armour, so it´s just about who scores the first decisive hits. The 11inch shells are far more destructive but she will get more hits in return.
With radar FC I´d put my money on the American cruiser otherwise its pretty even. The range advantage of the German guns won´t help much, since it´s very unlikely, that hits will occur past 30k Yards.
User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Lutscha:
The Americans can easily penetrate Lützow´s armour, so it´s just about who scores the first decisive hits. The 11inch shells are far more destructive but she will get more hits in return.
With radar FC I´d put my money on the American cruiser otherwise its pretty even. The range advantage of the German guns won´t help much, since it´s very unlikely, that hits will occur past 30k Yards.
That´s not what happened at River Plate. The German "pockett BB" did hit heavily the British ships, not being the contenders at extreme range.

As a matter of fact only a small proportion of engagements had happened at someone´s extreme range. The radar FC would not be of any help if the Germans could achieve early hits, which is something they usually did as in RP or DS. (As I recall it´s in North Cape where the Germans didn´t scored a single hit against the DoY).
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Lutscha
Member
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:20 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Lutscha »

Radar (Mk 8 onwards) ensures that the Americans are more likely to hit first. I don´t know about German first salvo hits/straddles but the Americans had both.
User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Lutscha:
Radar (Mk 8 onwards) ensures that the Americans are more likely to hit first. I don´t know about German first salvo hits/straddles but the Americans had both.
At what range? How can we be so sure that the cruisers will hit first?
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Lutscha
Member
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:20 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Lutscha »

I`m not sure they will, I just think it´s more likely for them to hit first.

West Virginia hit Yamashiro at about 22k Yards on her first salvo at Surigao.

Iowa straddled Nowaki at 35k yards on her first salvo.
Bgile
Senior Member
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Post by Bgile »

US CAs had 335 lb AP shells capable of penetrating AGSs armor, so they would be very dangerous to her. On the other hand, if you are talking about contemporary US cruisers prior to the Baltimore class, their fire control probably wasn’t much better than Exeters although 9 guns vs 6 would certainly help.

I would still give AGS the advantage because of her heavier guns.
Tiornu
Supporter
Posts: 1222
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:13 am
Location: Ex Utero

Post by Tiornu »

The only American CAs with 335-lb shells were the Baltimores. Nevertheless, the American shells will be somewhat more penetrative than the ones that historically hit Graf Spee
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:

That´s not what happened at River Plate. The German "pockett BB" did hit heavily the British ships, not being the contenders at extreme range.
Don't forget that at the River Plate battle Exeter only scored two 8 inch shell hits. These two hits did a substantial part of the internal damage to Spee. According to Rasenack one of these two hits narrowly avoided penetrating the armour plating right into Spee's engine rooms, a hit he says ''would have been disastrous.''
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

RF, you´re right but Exeter was more damaged than GS at RP. The only reason Exeter didn´t sunk was (again the Lutjens Syndrome) Langsdorf´s order to disengage and go to Montevideo.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Bgile
Senior Member
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Post by Bgile »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:RF, you´re right but Exeter was more damaged than GS at RP. The only reason Exeter didn´t sunk was (again the Lutjens Syndrome) Langsdorf´s order to disengage and go to Montevideo.
I don't think this is true. Didn't Langsdorf shift fire to the two CLs because they were closing in and pelting him with 6" fire? IIRC the decision to go to Montevideo was made somewhat later.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF »

Bgile wrote:
Karl Heidenreich wrote:RF, you´re right but Exeter was more damaged than GS at RP. The only reason Exeter didn´t sunk was (again the Lutjens Syndrome) Langsdorf´s order to disengage and go to Montevideo.
I don't think this is true. Didn't Langsdorf shift fire to the two CLs because they were closing in and pelting him with 6" fire? IIRC the decision to go to Montevideo was made somewhat later.
Bgile is right, Ajax and Achilles attacked like destroyers. It was about this time that Langsdorf was knocked out and slightly wounded, this is where the Germans lost the initiative and lost the battle.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

RF:
Bgile is right, Ajax and Achilles attacked like destroyers. It was about this time that Langsdorf was knocked out and slightly wounded, this is where the Germans lost the initiative and lost the battle.
That´s not the point. The point is about Langsdorf´s failure to achieve victory when he had the chance (and indeed he had it at hand). Of course he lost the battle when he was winning: Exeter was his challenge, once out of the combat GS could handle the other two cruisers with her superior armament, even if he decides to disengage.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Bgile
Senior Member
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Post by Bgile »

Karl Heidenreich wrote: That´s not the point. The point is about Langsdorf´s failure to achieve victory when he had the chance (and indeed he had it at hand). Of course he lost the battle when he was winning: Exeter was his challenge, once out of the combat GS could handle the other two cruisers with her superior armament, even if he decides to disengage.
He didn't have the chance to sink Exeter. It would have taken quite some time to do, and he'd have been absolutely wrecked by close range cruiser fire and torpedoes while he ignored them. He disabled Exeter and then had to turn to the other opponents in self preservation.
Post Reply