Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

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wadinga
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

What is confused about this?
Ting-ting went the fire gong and I shut my eyes. BAROOM! The Prince of Wales' first salvo was away from A and B turrets. The slight concussion and the brown smoke that drifted aft (the wind dispersed it fairly quickly) brought welcome relief from inaction. My fingers moved up and down the three knobs. Suddenly a rippling yellow flash played in front of the Bismarck, followed by a dark cloud that, nearly blotting her out, hung for an appreciable time. She had fired. At whom? The range was 26,500 yds (nearly 13 miles) and it would take almost a minute to find out. There was a hoarse croak from a box on the bulkhead heralding our fall of shot...………...
Clearly, Bismarck fires shortly after PoW's first salvo and before her fall of shot.

Ted Briggs is a signalman, he has other things to do. Geoffrey Brookes is a Gunnery Officer and is staring intently at Bismarck through high powered glasses. There is nothing convoluted about it, it could not be more straightforward.
Mr.Wadinga is black-listed since long time !
And there I was worried I was not going to make it onto this thread's list! :lol:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
dunmunro
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro »

wadinga wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:44 pm Hello All,

I do hope it is not too late to get my name added to the highly distinguished "Black List" of hooligans and deniers on this thread too! :D

Can I remind you of Geoffrey Brooke who writes with great clarity:
Ting-ting went the fire gong and I shut my eyes. BAROOM! The Prince of Wales' first salvo was away from A and B turrets. The slight concussion and the brown smoke that drifted aft (the wind dispersed it fairly quickly) brought welcome relief from inaction. My fingers moved up and down the three knobs. Suddenly a rippling yellow flash played in front of the Bismarck, followed by a dark cloud that, nearly blotting her out, hung for an appreciable time. She had fired. At whom? The range was 26,500 yds (nearly 13 miles) and it would take almost a minute to find out. There was a hoarse croak from a box on the bulkhead heralding our fall of shot...………...
Clearly, Bismarck fires shortly after PoW's first salvo and before her fall of shot. This event, unlike PG's KTB is actually time stamped by PoW's fire control record, whereas the PG KTB is ambiguous and merely says both ships are returning fire at 05:55. There is to my eye nothing about starting or commencing and this point has been already made by Herr Nilsson. (Who does not deserve the outrageous insults being thrown at him :negative: ). This can mean both ships were in the process of firing at 05:54 and will be at 05:56 but a log entry was made at 05:55. A & A, who I believe have employment in the computing trade wish to believe that KTB/log entries are accurately time stamped. When it suits them they contradict this, say when the KTB says Hood explodes after 06:01 or when Norfolk logs the identification of the BCF half an hour after first smoke. The evidence is ignored or distorted as required to support the speculative timeline.

Dunmunro, please add the excellent Geoffrey Brooke to your impressive list of authorities.


Northcape, have you noticed your observation
Northcape wrote: "The entry in the book says only that PG and BS (= both german ships, "Verband") fired starting at 5:55. I'm sorry, but my mother tongue is german"
(My emphasis) is being used against your observations? Surely "return fire" is just a present tense, and nothing actually written says "commenced"?


All the best

wadinga
I did mention Brooke's passage, above, previously but in this list:
We have Lutjen's radio signal at 0552.
We have two RN BofIs that determined that all 3 battleships opened fire within one minute
We have a similar statement from Schmitz-Westerholt with Brinkmann's concurrence.
We have Brinkmann's entry in the PE War Diary where he clearly states that Bismarck fired before PE.
We have official reports from all 3 RN ships and multiple eyewitnesses from the same.
We have the Baron's statement under interrogation
We have similar statements from two other Bismarck crew.
I was only referring to contemporary (1941) accounts. However, Brooke's account is very interesting and I don't doubt that it is completely accurate since his only job was to observe Bismarck and PoW's FoS in relation to Bismarck. Brooke was an eyewitness to the action but Brooke stays focused in his account and doesn't mention things that he couldn't have known and he states clearly that PE was outside his narrow telescopic vision. The Baron's, BWOC, duty was to observe Suffolk and Norfolk and he was only a very peripheral participant in the battle.
Last edited by dunmunro on Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto,

it is really a waste of time and resources to keep on providing evidences to those " hooligan /deniers " at any cost, ... on this thread as well as on the other one about the Court Martial threat.

Those guys do have the arrogance to deny all sorts of data, all type of evidence and official documents one can show them here in.

They will keep on stubbornly generate any sort of doubt and fantasy interpretation, ... not supported by any evidence, ... in order never to admit their miserable failures when they take a side on an historical discussion ... and somebody else is simply demonstrating them that they are wrong and provide them the evidence of it.

This is their real problem, ... the are not able to loose, ... and absorb it while admitting that they were incorrect with their first evaluation.

Because of this unfair approach they keep on loosing and fall down below more and more as the discussion goes on ... and new documents and evidence are provided, ... over killing them, ... and requiring more and more ridiculous inventions to be generated on their side.

This discussion removed any doubt I still had about their current discussion approach, ... no matter the subject.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:30 pm Hello everybody,

today it should be a good day for ALL the loosers to admit their defeat.
"Dunmunro had (histerically) cried: "We NO STATEMENTS FROM THE RN SIDE THAT BISMARCK DELAYED FIRE. NONE!!!"
and he was wrong, as lately usual here (but at least he does not support the low cheating interpretation of the PG KTB given by cheaters). Ted Briggs is very clear in his book:


Ted_Briggs.jpg


I agree British witnesses are all very confused, but as I wrote:
Luckily we have the PG KTB and all the German Gunnery Officers giving a clear input, despite the attempts to quibble over German language "nouances" (after the ones to quibble over English "nouances"). :lol:

Bye, Alberto
Again, the A&A gong show have to use secondary sources written many decades after the battle to try and shore up their fictional conspiracy theory.

We know what Briggs stated, under oath, shortly after Hood's loss and his 1941 account clearly shows that PE did delay opening fire, but is silent about Bismarck.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

the primary source, ... now simply : SHUT UP !

DS_open_fire_PG_KTB.jpeg
DS_open_fire_PG_KTB.jpeg (101.31 KiB) Viewed 1257 times

A fair gentleman now will simply admit his miserable failure, ... but evidently we have none here in.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro »

Brinkmann via the PE War Diary, p.35:
Bismarck, since Fleet had exchanged numbers [order of position] to gain a clear field of fire
At the initial sighting, they seemed to be heavy cruisers, and it appeared daring for the
English to go after our formation with these units. The enemy opened fire even while closing in
Bismarck was the first to answer [their] fire and shortly thereafter Prinz Eugen, and the battle
developed as described above...I now learned by semaphore from the commander of Bismarck...
(page 36)
...I was ordered to drop back on starboard...
A fair gentleman now will simply admit his miserable failure, ...
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
happy to hear that Mr.Dunmunro finally trusts Brinkmann :clap:, the same who signed the PG KTB (including Schmalenbach crystal clear statement):

PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg
PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg (74.11 KiB) Viewed 1249 times
PG_KTB_Schmalenbach_openfire.jpg
PG_KTB_Schmalenbach_openfire.jpg (19.4 KiB) Viewed 1249 times

End of story !
A fair gentleman should admit his pitiable failure but an average smart person should at least be clever enough to SHUT UP !


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

this fair gentleman, … long before the above incompetent researcher, … has found an evidence of the opposite.

This photo demonstrate that Bismarck opened fire AFTER the Prinz Eugen first salvo, … and demonstrate the Kpt Brinkmann statement being simply incorrect.

It is a PRIMARY SOURCE document correctly captioned by the photographer which took it during the battle :

Bundesarchiv_Bismarck_first_salvo.jpg
Bundesarchiv_Bismarck_first_salvo.jpg (64.19 KiB) Viewed 1229 times

Now, in absence of a similar level historical document demonstrating something different to counter it, ... the incompetent history researcher writing above should admit his miserable failure and having lost this discussion once for good.

Lets see how fair it is now, ... how good are his eyes and his brain, .. and how fair is his conduct here on this forum.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:49 pm Hello everybody,
happy to hear that Mr.Dunmunro finally trusts Brinkmann :clap:, the same who signed the PG KTB (including Schmalenbach crystal clear statement):


PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg


PG_KTB_Schmalenbach_openfire.jpg


End of story !
A fair gentleman should admit his pitiable failure but an average smart person should at least be clever enough to SHUT UP !


Bye, Alberto
The real question is whether you and A now admit that your timeline showing PE firing first is wrong?
Brinkmann's statement also clearly shows that the 0555 entry in the War diary doesn't imply that PE fired first and thus that Bismarck opened fire at 0555.
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio Bonomi wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:16 pm Hello everybody,

this fair gentleman, … long before the above incompetent researcher, … has found an evidence of the opposite.

This photo demonstrate that Bismarck opened fire AFTER the Prinz Eugen first salvo, … and demonstrate the Kpt Brinkmann statement being simply incorrect.

It is a PRIMARY SOURCE document correctly captioned by the photographer which took it during the battle :


Bundesarchiv_Bismarck_first_salvo.jpg


Now, in absence of a similar level historical document demonstrating something different to counter it, ... the incompetent history researcher writing above should admit his miserable failure and having lost this discussion once for good.

Lets see how fair it is now, ... how good are his eyes and his brain, .. and how fair is his conduct here on this forum.

Bye Antonio
So now Brinkmann can be added to your blacklist.. :D
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

the photo does !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Use your eyes and your brain if you are able to, … it is simply years that I am telling you to do it, … :stubborn:

You and everybody else have NO CHANCES to run away from that photo evidence, … and from what it clearly demonstrate.

As simple as that ...

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro »

dunmunro wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:24 pm
Alberto Virtuani wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:49 pm Hello everybody,
happy to hear that Mr.Dunmunro finally trusts Brinkmann :clap:, the same who signed the PG KTB (including Schmalenbach crystal clear statement):


PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg


PG_KTB_Schmalenbach_openfire.jpg


End of story !
A fair gentleman should admit his pitiable failure but an average smart person should at least be clever enough to SHUT UP !


Bye, Alberto
The real question is whether you and A now admit that your timeline showing PE firing first is wrong?
Brinkmann's statement also clearly shows that the 0555 entry in the War diary doesn't imply that PE fired first and thus that Bismarck opened fire at 0555.
Alberto, despite your years of devoted attendance to Antonio's conspiracy theory, it appears that you [and Brinkmann :shock: ] have now been added to the list of deniers... :oops:
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hello everybody,
Mr.Dunmunro wrote: "The real question is whether you and A now admit that your timeline showing PE firing first is wrong? "
Mr.Dunmunro, despite his years of devoted attendance to Mr.Wadinga's denial theory, is by now not very clear at all in his hysterical reactions after having been proven WRONG again by Ted Briggs..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Our timeline will not change moving the open fireof BS by 10 seconds (even if we have the photographic proof of what Antonio insists to explain to Mr.Dunmunro, while I have given up with such a guy)....
Mr.Dunmunro fantastic theory (without any credible timeline nor any salvo sequence, nor any battle reconstruction from his side) however will be destroyed if Bismarck opens fire to minutes later than British..... :kaput:

Not too diffcult to be understood, even for a denier, I guess....

Today, it would have been really a good day for the loosers to admit their defeat, but they will never. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

the photo incompetent denier, ... you have to accept what this photo shows, ... and tell us if you have any evidence to counter it.

Bundesarchiv_Bismarck_first_salvo.jpeg
Bundesarchiv_Bismarck_first_salvo.jpeg (64.17 KiB) Viewed 1189 times

Otherwise, ... you have to SHUT UP !!!

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:38 pm
Our timeline will not change moving the open fireof BS by 10 seconds Bye, Alberto
As a fellow denier it's gratifying that you also now admit that Antonio's photo interpretation is wrong.
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