Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

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RF
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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by RF » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:52 am

Djoser wrote: Let's remember the odds against Bismarck & PE at Denmark Strait, and the result... :think:
On paper. There were several factors which swung it the German way for the initial run in, which would have been negated somewhat if the Germans hadn't sunk Hood quickly.
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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by Djoser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:10 am

RF wrote:
Djoser wrote: Let's remember the odds against Bismarck & PE at Denmark Strait, and the result... :think:
On paper. There were several factors which swung it the German way for the initial run in, which would have been negated somewhat if the Germans hadn't sunk Hood quickly.
On paper? It was real, man! :lol:

I know what you are trying to say, it just sounded funny so I couldn't resist. I do think though that all the Germans really had to do was incapacitate the Hood--which of course they did in spectacular fashion, but which they were well on the way to doing regardless. If the Hood's backup fire control was any good they might have gotten a few licks in, but they were taking a severe beating from the get go.

This scenario is of course all 'on paper'. :D

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by RF » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:36 am

But Hood was not even firing on Bismarck, it was targeting Prinz Eugen.

Hood had to be eliminated quickly - not merely disabled - so all German fire can be concentrated on POW, which was firing on Bismarck.

Yes, the battle and result was real, but you are missing the point. The result could have been very different by simply tweaking a few points of detail, such as Hood firing on Bismarck. Remember that Holland had the advantage of opening fire first, came close to hitting the wrong target - a heavy hit on Bismarck which degrades its gunfire reduces the risk to Hood,
Tovey was more fortunate in that respect - in his battle an 8 inch shell from Norfolk knocked out the central gunnery control. the first hits from Rodney clobbered the forward turrets and sent a sheet of flame and shrapnel up Bismarck's control tower, all within the first few minutes. Holland was not that fortunate.
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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by Matrose71 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:04 pm

Salve,

You realy think that would have happend if BS was not a 9kn hulk, without any controls?

I have my clear doubts!

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by Thorsten Wahl » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:59 pm

RF wrote: Tovey was more fortunate in that respect - in his battle an 8 inch shell from Norfolk knocked out the central gunnery control. the first hits from Rodney clobbered the forward turrets and sent a sheet of flame and shrapnel up Bismarck's control tower, all within the first few minutes. Holland was not that fortunate.
Bismarck had a general course to northwest, Rodney and KGV were approaching fromthe forward sector relatively from Bismarck.
So the forward sensors and observation equipment/personnel and the forward turrets were presenting a high probability to hit target if MPI was centered on Bismarck.

As all three firecontrol stations as well as the night forecontrol station had capabilites to observe fire Bismarck has more redundancy in this respect compared to foreign ships. But several direct hits completely switch off the central control equipment/sensors until about 09:10. I suspect any direct hit against spot 1 and 2 on american BBs will switch off their central control too.
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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by Steve Crandell » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:59 pm

US battleships can use any of the Mark 37 positions (4) to spot main battery fire. Any of those directors can be switched to a main fire control computer. They also have a fire control position above the conning tower, and a main fire control computer in turret 2.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by Djoser » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:46 am

Maybe so, but in spite of all those redundancies the South Dakota was shit out of luck as far as fire control (or any offensive capability whatsoever) after a relatively weak battering to the upper superstructure at 2nd Guadalcanal. Though this was admittedly primarily due to electrical failure, and no doubt Washington would have dealt with similar punishment in much better shape to hit back, I am not convinced that all US (or British, or indeed any other nation's) capital ships could blithely resume truly effective gunnery immediately after the primary FC was knocked out. Not nearly quick enough to stop getting severely pummeled, as the Hood clearly was even before blowing up.

And also, though the Hood would need to be taken down pretty hard for a German victory at DS, in any alternate scenario to the magazine explosion, I do believe the Bismarck was indeed well into the process of rapidly eliminating any offensive ability the Hood possessed, even without such a catastrophic failure.

Whether or not the Hood initially fired at PE, she hit neither the PE nor the Bismarck, after switching fire. The Bismarck meanwhile hitting the Hood very hard with severe effect at least three times--despite the infamous delay in opening fire at all.

Those men in the Hood were surely as courageous as any sailors in history, but they were technologically outclassed just as surely, in a major way.

Though of course the POW's hit reducing Bismarck's fuel storage access did have a major role in the loss of the latter ship, there were several much more important events--above all, no rudder hit, no lost Bismarck.

The DS would have been a clear German victory as well, with an utterly impotent Hood yet riding the waves, and a fleeing POW with only a couple guns still able to fire from front turrets even if she had stuck it out.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by Steve Crandell » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:39 pm

South Dakota's problems were not as much related to fire control redundancy as with over reliance on radar and poor crew readiness for a night engagement - a USN problem in general at that time period - as well as I believe a generally poor standard of crew proficiency overall. Fortunately they did a wonderful job of providing a target for all of the IJN ships, leaving Washington to conduct night time target practice on Kirishima.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by Christian VII. » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:22 am

If it's just these six ships, then IMO the Germans get the edge due to advantages fire power and protection. Also it does seem to me the more I read about it that the German fire control systems were a little more accurate than those employed by the British (although I'd emphasize "a little" here because I really don't think there was much difference), thus I'd perhaps also expect a slightly higher hit percentage for the German trio.

But of course luck plays a big part in such battles, and it could swing both ways really.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by alecsandros » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:15 am

Christian VII. wrote:If it's just these six ships, then IMO the Germans get the edge due to advantages fire power and protection. Also it does seem to me the more I read about it that the German fire control systems were a little more accurate than those employed by the British (although I'd emphasize "a little" here because I really don't think there was much difference), thus I'd perhaps also expect a slightly higher hit percentage for the German trio.

But of course luck plays a big part in such battles, and it could swing both ways really.
Which 6 ships ?

Probably the most important would be battle geometry, the gunnery can do it's work only as long as the guns are pointed towrds the enemy. :wink:

German accuracy for heavy ships firings (CAs BCs and BBs) was usualy better than British accuracy, but mostly in difficult weather.

This came from a variety of factors, starting with the higher muzzle-velocity guns (giving shorter time of flight and quicker corrections), stabilization of main battery turrets, and others.

A good example of class vs class battle is Hipper vs Berwick (Dec 1940).
(HOwever, this wasn't set in stone. Lutzow at Barents Sea and Scharnhrost at Stromvaer and North Cape provide rather unpleasant surprises for efficiency of gunnery in terms of actual damage caused to the enemy, compared with the amount of ammunition expended)

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by Christian VII. » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:22 pm

alecsandros wrote: Which 6 ships ?
The 6 ships mentioned in the title :)

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by alecsandros » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:49 am

Christian VII. wrote:
alecsandros wrote: Which 6 ships ?
The 6 ships mentioned in the title :)
:)
IF so, the first chance would go to the GErmans, at least on paper.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by Steve Crandell » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:59 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Christian VII. wrote:
alecsandros wrote: Which 6 ships ?
The 6 ships mentioned in the title :)
:)
IF so, the first chance would go to the GErmans, at least on paper.
I think that on paper any one of the three British ships would defeat Scharnhorst pretty easily, so wouldn't the advantage go to the British?

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by Dave Saxton » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:54 pm

Steve Crandell wrote:
I think that on paper any one of the three British ships would defeat Scharnhorst pretty easily, so wouldn't the advantage go to the British?
Why would Scharnhorst be easy to defeat compared to Bismarck and Tirpitz, or KGV and POW?
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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Post by alecsandros » Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:30 am

Steve Crandell wrote:
I think that on paper any one of the three British ships would defeat Scharnhorst pretty easily, so wouldn't the advantage go to the British?
Well Tirpitz and BIsmarck would defeat KGV and PRince of Wales, on paper at least. With Scharnhorst defeated, it would remain a 2 vs 1.

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