Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
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- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
Hello everybody,
I mean those tracks charts !
So everybody having doubts about the correct timing, or still with the intention to enlarge the events timing for any reason I have difficulties to understand, will find the demonstration that it cannot be done.
The timing is a known parameter well proven by written evidences and maps signed by the Officers that were there, including Capt. Leach himself as you have read above.
I hope that with this brief summary from my side, everything will be clear also for the last of you that had some difficulties to read, analyze and mostly accept the official available evidences.
Now you have all the correct references, explanations and event timing with associated maps.
I am sure you have noticed that I have used all Official evidences from Royal Navy, Admiralty and PoW Official documents.
So, in case you are still in disagreement, please attach to your theory at least similar evidences in support.
Bye Antonio
I mean those tracks charts !
So everybody having doubts about the correct timing, or still with the intention to enlarge the events timing for any reason I have difficulties to understand, will find the demonstration that it cannot be done.
The timing is a known parameter well proven by written evidences and maps signed by the Officers that were there, including Capt. Leach himself as you have read above.
I hope that with this brief summary from my side, everything will be clear also for the last of you that had some difficulties to read, analyze and mostly accept the official available evidences.
Now you have all the correct references, explanations and event timing with associated maps.
I am sure you have noticed that I have used all Official evidences from Royal Navy, Admiralty and PoW Official documents.
So, in case you are still in disagreement, please attach to your theory at least similar evidences in support.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
..... The Rowell map makes best sense from a time versus motion perspective. If the avoidance turn to starboard was minor in nature and performed under easy helm (15deg rudder), then the time progression of the following turn to port (change of heading versus elapsed time) fits. The only comment to be offered is that, on the basis of the governing clock time assumed in these original reports, the rudder was perhaps put over for the port turn closer to 6:00:30 than to 6:01:00. I do not think it is possible to verify that theory based upon the available data; these reports were written as an account of a battle, not as an analysis of the turn characteristics of PoW. As such, the cited times, while sufficiently accurate for the intended purpose, were quite probably not absolutely precise. I have seen the same phenomenon in recorded salvo times of WW1 ship gunnery logs.
I know you must feel beset all around by wolves (critics) sometimes. Speaking for myself, your analysis of the physical features of the engagement continues to be impressive.
B
I know you must feel beset all around by wolves (critics) sometimes. Speaking for myself, your analysis of the physical features of the engagement continues to be impressive.
B
- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
Hello everybody,
@ Byron Angel,
you wrote :
Bye Antonio
@ Byron Angel,
you wrote :
While I like your analysis, ... I would like to thank you for your nice above words.I know you must feel beset all around by wolves (critics) sometimes. Speaking for myself, your analysis of the physical features of the engagement continues to be impressive.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
I don't consider myself a "wolf", but I have seen so much SIGNED, WRITTEN evidence and statements from SPOKEN testimony during this marathon thread, it is impossible to understand the judgment process required to separate the truthful signed, written stuff from that of the false stuff which was signed, written, etc.Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,
The timing is a known parameter well proven by written evidences and maps signed by the Officers that were there, including Capt. Leach himself as you have read above.
If the acid-test of truth is based on written, signed records, then what arbitrates the veracity of true vs. false?
Variances between what is and is not correct, seem to exist in abundance from ALL records. Some of the material presented here, by all sides involved, seems to be an attempt to "prove a negative", which cannot be done. Sometimes the exact truth can never be proven fully, one way or the other and I'm willing to leave it at that because, by now, there is far too much time that has passed and too little incontrovertible evidence left. 70/30 works most of the time, but 100/0 is simply unattainable.
Antonio has done some very hard work and thorough research, to be sure. Others have raised valid points, but no matter what, there seems no way to ever reach consensus, on any side, of this discussion.
I just wanted to thank you all for a VERY entertaining, if sometimes contentious, thread.
I'm out....!
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
... Thankfully, Antonio has already cross-checked the available hard evidence, coming from both German and British sources (maps, declarations, artillery performance, etc), with the famous photographs of the battle and with the damage suffered and ispected on the Prince of Wales.RNfanDan wrote:
I don't consider myself a "wolf", but I have seen so much SIGNED, WRITTEN evidence and statements from SPOKEN testimony during this marathon thread, it is impossible to understand the judgment process required to separate the truthful signed, written stuff from that of the false stuff which was signed, written, etc.
He's done alot of very hard work, and I think he has the most complete timeline about this battle ever to be constructed.
Thus I am looking forward for his revised "Battle of Denmark Strait article" (currently hosted on HMS Hood.org) , as this is history at it's best.
I would also like to thank all of our colleagues here, and I hope no hard feelings remain, as this 111 pg thread gave us a better understanding of the things we are so passionate about...
Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
You mean dismissed without any quantificationalecsandros wrote:No, this has been debated much earlier in the thread.RF wrote: Perhaps the best way to proceed from here is for alecsandros or Alberto or Antonio to directly answer the arguments put forward for a scenario where POW is crippled or lost and Bismarck is loose in the open Atlantic without any shadowers. In other words if POW continues, what is your Plan B?
No deviation from the tunnel argument, this exemplifies what I mean.In short, for my part at least, I do not expect the Bismarck to escape without further damage sufferd. And given the range (13km), and perforating power of 14"/L45 at that range, every portion of Bismarck from the waterline upwards was completely vulnerable .
So what happens if and when the continuing battle does not conform to your expectation? The actual final battle on 27 May shows that a considerable amount of time has to elapse before that vulnerability was exploited, against a near stationery target by a KGV not even under serious fire. You assign a hitting power to POW that wasn't much in evidence for the short time of the actual DS action, certainly compared with Bismarck's shooting.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
No, RF,RF wrote:
No deviation from the tunnel argument, this exemplifies what I mean.
So what happens if and when the continuing battle does not conform to your expectation? The actual final battle on 27 May shows that a considerable amount of time has to elapse before that vulnerability was exploited, against a near stationery target by a KGV not even under serious fire. You assign a hitting power to POW that wasn't much in evidence for the short time of the actual DS action, certainly compared with Bismarck's shooting.
At 6:00, Prince of WAles had 9 operational guns, and Bismarck's volume above the waterline was completely vulnerable to hits.
Prince of Wales already managed 3 hits in 6 minutes, at far larger ranges than the ones in existence at 6:00.
Moreover, at about the same time Prince of Wales turned under smoke, Bismarck also turned to avoid "torpedoes". That caused both Bismarck and PRinz Eugen to lose their FC solutions, as the rate of approach had suddenly changed.
With the Prince of Wales mantaining a steady course (and not turning away), she would have the nice opportunity of striking the Bismarck without suffering return damage , or only suffering marginal damage, if any (Bismarck did not hit the Prince of Wales while she was avoiding the "torpedoes")
Your comparison with KGV's performance on May 27th is not valid, as the sea state was very bad for KGV (and very good for PRince of Wales). Moreover, KGV probably scored hits at 15km, and certainly at 12km (repeated hits, inclujding the one that put out the Baron's secondary control tower), so actualy at the ranges involved at 6:00 in the Denmark Strait, the 14"/L45 gun could easily score damaging hits on the Bismarck.
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In a realistic engagement, I would expect Prince of Wales to hit Bismarck 5-6 times in 3 minutes, at 13-15km range, causing further speed degradation, down to possibly 20-22kts for the moment. Bismarck's return fire (after clearing the "torpedoes") would cause more damage to the Prince of Wales, possibly damage to her machinery and weapon systems, and speed degradation.
However, Bismarck would be in no position to finish off the PoW, and she would try to break off.
That woudl not turn out good, as the 6 destroyers dettached by Holland for a northward sweep would arive at Hood's sinking at about 8:00AM, and would start a high speed chase, directed by the ever-present Suffolk and Norfolk (which would be mantaing contact on the slow moving Bismarck).
At about 14:00, low on fuel, the destroyers and the 2 heavy cruisers would engage the Germans, and possibly score 1 torpedo hit or 2.
Even if they would not succeed, they would have the Bismarck pined down under torpedo threat. KGV and Repulse+ Victorious would engage in the morning of the 25th of May (Bismarck could not escape due to her speed loss), and a devastating final battle would ensue, in which both German ships would be lost.
Heavy damage would be suffered by KGV and Repulse also.
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As you can see, it would all depend on Prince of Wales further speed-reducing damage delivered to Bismarck. Why ?
Because all capital ship engagements that I know about, which were fought at medium-to-short range caused rapid speed loss.
Dunkerque and Kirishima are the first that come to mind, but there are plenty of examples coming from the Battle of Jutland.
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
If you are including Kirishima as one of your examples you should also include South Dakota, which was hit 26 times in the same engagement at the same range without suffering any speed loss. Are you assuming Bismarck is unlucky?alecsandros wrote: Dunkerque and Kirishima are the first that come to mind, but there are plenty of examples coming from the Battle of Jutland.
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
Kirishima fought the battle with wrong ammunitionSteve Crandell wrote: If you are including Kirishima as one of your examples you should also include South Dakota, which was hit 26 times in the same engagement at the same range without suffering any speed loss.
Despite the fact that japanese forces identified 2 american ships as battleships at around 0050 Kirishima starts firing at around 0100 but mostly did not use armor piercing shells. K. obtained one hit with a 14" shell (according Buships WAR DAMAGE REPORT NO. 57.) Most other hits were considered as hits of cruiser caliber weapons/secondaries, wich were by no means adequate to endanger a modern battleship at the distance in question.
For comparision Washington expended 75 16" armor piercing shells between 0100 and 0107 and obtained approximately 20 hits with the main caliber and left Kirishima as burning and defenseless wreck.
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
Gentlemen,
The argument over who was right or wrong could be continued for ever. I would think that to Court Martial an admiral and a senior captain with another admiral
who had been in command of the operation to sink the Bismarck standing in as a 'prisoners friend' (Tovey) in the middle of a war was politically unacceptable, particularly as the facts of the case were bound to leak out to the press and that both Churchill and Pound realised this and dropped the accusations.
The argument over who was right or wrong could be continued for ever. I would think that to Court Martial an admiral and a senior captain with another admiral
who had been in command of the operation to sink the Bismarck standing in as a 'prisoners friend' (Tovey) in the middle of a war was politically unacceptable, particularly as the facts of the case were bound to leak out to the press and that both Churchill and Pound realised this and dropped the accusations.
- Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
@ Paul Mercer: I fully agree with you and I do think Churchill & Paound were right as there was a war to fight for Britain.
However, 72+ years later we have understood , thanks to Antonio's researches, what happened and how everyone acted from a military viewpoint.
Bye, Alberto
However, 72+ years later we have understood , thanks to Antonio's researches, what happened and how everyone acted from a military viewpoint.
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
Hi All,
Despite premature attempts to put this thread to bed, I repeat the question I asked a week ago,
Hello Antonio,
During your Kew studies have you turned up any evidence, at all, that the Admiralty had any plans, at all, to Court Martial anybody about anything?
Does it all depend on something Tovey thought he remembered 20 years afterward?
All the best
To have a Court Martial, you have to assemble evidence. As late as the eve of the Second Enquiry there was not even an attempt at the "Plot" .
All the best
wadinga
Despite premature attempts to put this thread to bed, I repeat the question I asked a week ago,
Hello Antonio,
During your Kew studies have you turned up any evidence, at all, that the Admiralty had any plans, at all, to Court Martial anybody about anything?
Does it all depend on something Tovey thought he remembered 20 years afterward?
All the best
To have a Court Martial, you have to assemble evidence. As late as the eve of the Second Enquiry there was not even an attempt at the "Plot" .
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
None of this information was known to Leach and the executive officer at that time, they can only take decisions on what they know whether right or wrong. It has taken over sixty years to reach your hindsight positionalecsandros wrote: At 6:00, Prince of WAles had 9 operational guns, and Bismarck's volume above the waterline was completely vulnerable to hits.
Prince of Wales already managed 3 hits in 6 minutes, at far larger ranges than the ones in existence at 6:00.
Again a hindsight position. Leach could not possibly know about Bismarck turning at a point immediately prior to that turn. Yes the opportunity would be there if an accurate firing solution is maintained and the 9 guns remain fully in action, we know that now and even then we cannot be certain how much advantage POW could gain.Moreover, at about the same time Prince of Wales turned under smoke, Bismarck also turned to avoid "torpedoes". That caused both Bismarck and PRinz Eugen to lose their FC solutions, as the rate of approach had suddenly changed.
With the Prince of Wales mantaining a steady course (and not turning away), she would have the nice opportunity of striking the Bismarck without suffering return damage , or only suffering marginal damage, if any (Bismarck did not hit the Prince of Wales while she was avoiding the "torpedoes")
I think that this outcome is certainly possible but it does depend on POW shooting far better than my impression of the ships performance suggests and Bismarck failing to shoot well at all. My money would be on Bismarck rather than POW. With respect to speed impairment, yes that would be a problem for Bismarck if the ship continues to be shadowed. But if as I would expect Bismarck comes out the winner there is far less chance of succesful shadowing.In a realistic engagement, I would expect Prince of Wales to hit Bismarck 5-6 times in 3 minutes, at 13-15km range, causing further speed degradation, down to possibly 20-22kts for the moment. Bismarck's return fire (after clearing the "torpedoes") would cause more damage to the Prince of Wales, possibly damage to her machinery and weapon systems, and speed degradation.
However, Bismarck would be in no position to finish off the PoW, and she would try to break off.
That woudl not turn out good, as the 6 destroyers dettached by Holland for a northward sweep would arive at Hood's sinking at about 8:00AM, and would start a high speed chase, directed by the ever-present Suffolk and Norfolk (which would be mantaing contact on the slow moving Bismarck).
At about 14:00, low on fuel, the destroyers and the 2 heavy cruisers would engage the Germans, and possibly score 1 torpedo hit or 2.
Even if they would not succeed, they would have the Bismarck pined down under torpedo threat. KGV and Repulse+ Victorious would engage in the morning of the 25th of May (Bismarck could not escape due to her speed loss), and a devastating final battle would ensue, in which both German ships would be lost.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
They knew 1 gun was out of action, so 9 operational. The ship fully functional....RF wrote: At 6:00, Prince of WAles had 9 operational guns, and Bismarck's volume above the waterline was completely vulnerable to hits.
Prince of Wales already managed 3 hits in 6 minutes, at far larger ranges than the ones in existence at 6:00.
Bismarck would probably hit more and with serious results. But Prince of Wales would also hit a few times, and given the range, I would expect further speed drop to the Bismarck. The tactical "winner" would probably be the Bismarck, but in the longer run, the destroyers, Norfolk, Suffolk, KGV, Repulse, Victorious, would corner her.I think that this outcome is certainly possible but it does depend on POW shooting far better than my impression of the ships performance suggests and Bismarck failing to shoot well at all. My money would be on Bismarck rather than POW. With respect to speed impairment, yes that would be a problem for Bismarck if the ship continues to be shadowed. But if as I would expect Bismarck comes out the winner there is far less chance of succesful shadowing.
Re: Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War
Yes we may now know fully what happened..... however that does not necessarily give people the right to judge the officers involved for a dereliction of duty - unless of course they believe they are better. The problem with that is that those who judge were not the ones actually under fire or in a position to carry out the hindsight actions.Alberto Virtuani wrote:..... I do think Churchill & Paound were right as there was a war to fight for Britain.
However, 72+ years later we have understood , thanks to Antonio's researches, what happened and how everyone acted from a military viewpoint.
A world without mistakes does not guarantee a utopia.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.