British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

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paulcadogan
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British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by paulcadogan »

Hello all,

There is a very noticeable difference between the performance of British submarines vs. major German warships and that of their German counterparts vs. major British targets. Granted there were only four occasions on which the British subs scored against German ships of cruiser size or larger, while there were many more German successes.

British:
1) HMS Truant vs. Karlsruhe: 1 torpedo hit, target sunk, but remained afloat for 2 hours, and was scuttled by 2 more torpedoes from escorting torpedo boat. Damage control questioned and possible tow back to harbour suggested later
2) HMS Clyde vs. Gneisenau: 1 hit, target survived
3) HMS Trident vs. Prinz Eugen: 1 hit, target survived
4) HMS Spearfish vs. Lutzow: 1 hit, target survived

German:
1) U29 vs Courageous: 2 hits, target sunk
2) U47 vs, Royal Oak: 3 hits (2 attacks), target sunk (stationary target!)
3) U81 vs. Ark Royal: 1 hit, target sunk after long tow and damage control measures that were questioned
4) U331 vs. Barham: 3 hits, target sunk
5) U557 vs. Galatea: 3 hits, target sunk
6) U73 vs. Eagle: 4 hits (!!), target sunk
7) U751 vs. Audacity: 3 hits (2 attacks) target sunk
8) U565 vs. Naiad: 1 hit, target sunk
9) U205 vs. Hermione: 1 hit, target sunk

So...each time the British subs scored only 1 hit and got only 1 "aided" sinking out of 4, while on the majority of occasions, the German u-boats scored multiple hits on moving targets at sea, sinking them rapidly.

What would any of you suggest as the reason(s) for this difference in performance? Training? Did targeting methods differ causing wider spreads for the British? Was it the hydrodynamic or other features of the torpedoes? Range at which attacks were carried out?

What are your thoughts?

Paul
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
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marcelo_malara
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by marcelo_malara »

German skippers were good, no question, the Argentine cargo ship Rio Tercero was hit at the incredible distance of 4300 m in the coast of US, albeit with one torpedo of a three torpedoes salvo. Another interesting event is the sinking of the HMS Penelope sunk by U410 in the coast of Italy, she was hit at 6000 m while steaming at the incredible speed of 24 knots. That´s pure marksmanship. I recommend the book UBoats Attack Logs, that deals exclusively with Uboat attacks to warships.
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by paulcadogan »

Thanks for the reply Marcelo.

Yes I missed Penelope in my list. She was hit by two torpedoes in 2 attacks - the first hit in the aft engine room, then the second in her boilers abut 15 or so minutes later.

There was even the failed attack on Nelson by U56 on Oct 30, 1939 - from a range of only 800m. Three torpedoes were fired and at least 2 struck Nelson (the U-boat crew heard the metallic "clangs"), but they failed to go off.

It would be interesting to compare the ranges at which the attacks were made.
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marcelo_malara
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by marcelo_malara »

Yes, the geometry of the torpedoing is described in the mentioned book according to the logs of the uboats involved. If you have the same from the RN subs we can compare distances.
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by dunmunro »

paulcadogan wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:43 pm Hello all,

There is a very noticeable difference between the performance of British submarines vs. major German warships and that of their German counterparts vs. major British targets. Granted there were only four occasions on which the British subs scored against German ships of cruiser size or larger, while there were many more German successes.

British:
1) HMS Truant vs. Karlsruhe: 1 torpedo hit, target sunk, but remained afloat for 2 hours, and was scuttled by 2 more torpedoes from escorting torpedo boat. Damage control questioned and possible tow back to harbour suggested later
2) HMS Clyde vs. Gneisenau: 1 hit, target survived
3) HMS Trident vs. Prinz Eugen: 1 hit, target survived
4) HMS Spearfish vs. Lutzow: 1 hit, target survived

German:
1) U29 vs Courageous: 2 hits, target sunk
2) U47 vs, Royal Oak: 3 hits (2 attacks), target sunk (stationary target!)
3) U81 vs. Ark Royal: 1 hit, target sunk after long tow and damage control measures that were questioned
4) U331 vs. Barham: 3 hits, target sunk
5) U557 vs. Galatea: 3 hits, target sunk
6) U73 vs. Eagle: 4 hits (!!), target sunk
7) U751 vs. Audacity: 3 hits (2 attacks) target sunk
8) U565 vs. Naiad: 1 hit, target sunk
9) U205 vs. Hermione: 1 hit, target sunk

So...each time the British subs scored only 1 hit and got only 1 "aided" sinking out of 4, while on the majority of occasions, the German u-boats scored multiple hits on moving targets at sea, sinking them rapidly.

What would any of you suggest as the reason(s) for this difference in performance? Training? Did targeting methods differ causing wider spreads for the British? Was it the hydrodynamic or other features of the torpedoes? Range at which attacks were carried out?

What are your thoughts?

Paul
The U-boats were operating in a 'target rich' environment, whilst the RN subs were not, and as likely as not had to take snap shots from very long ranges.
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by Mostlyharmless »

The list of hits posted is rather biased as it omits several cases where a British warship suffered a single hit and survived. A more complete list is at https://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/warships.html and includes single hits to Barham, Malaya, Phoebe, Newfoundland, Birmingham, Nabob and Thane as well as a double hit on Edinburgh. We would need a list of complete misses as well to assess the "marksmanship" of the two navies.

However, it is plausible that, once they had working torpedoes, both German and American submarines might do better than British because both could launch torpedoes with angled gyros so that they did not need to aim the complete submarine, which might be difficult in currents. From the period when German torpedoes didn't always work, we could perhaps add the two hits by U-56 on HMS Nelson.
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by Byron Angel »

Hi Paul,
We might want to avoid the temptation to draw conclusions without first having a look "under the surface" ... so to speak. I'd be interested to understand the circumstances surrounding the referenced British sub attacks; the German targets were all fast ships unlikely to have been constrained by convoy escort duties (as was the case with several of the British victims - Barham, for example).

BTW, I noticed no Italian warships on the British scorecard, whereas British subs were pretty active in the Mediterranean. Just curious.

Byron
Last edited by Byron Angel on Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by Byron Angel »

Hi Mostly Harmless,
Am I understanding your post correctly that the RN lacked (or perhaps declined to use) torpedo gyro-angling in WW2? I know that the RN did have such gear in WW1. Can you elaborate?

BTW - very interesting website re British submarines
http://rnsubs.co.uk/articles/developmen ... stems.html

B
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by marcelo_malara »

Mostlyharmless wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:06 pm

However, it is plausible that, once they had working torpedoes, both German and American submarines might do better than British because both could launch torpedoes with angled gyros so that they did not need to aim the complete submarine, which might be difficult in currents. From the period when German torpedoes didn't always work, we could perhaps add the two hits by U-56 on HMS Nelson.
I am curious about this, where did you get the info that the RN could not angle the gyros?
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by dunmunro »

RN submarine torpedoes could use a 90 degree gyro angling but typically didn't as the time to turn caused inaccuracy. The basic RN Submarine Torpedo Director could calculate 0, and 90 degree target angles:
...The main problem it solved was to compensate for the turn a torpedo made when angled 90 ° (for a time continuous angling was contemplated, but it was rejected). Total production for the Royal Navy was just under 300, plus 80 made in the United States for the Soviet Navy. In effect the STD was a much better equivalent of the ‘Is-Was’. Inputs were own course (from gyro), range, current enemy bearing (from the periscope), estimated enemy course and desired track angle (angle between torpedo and enemy course). Unlike fire-control computers, the STD did not embody a model of the tactical situation (a position-keeper); its solution depended on what could be seen from the periscope at the moment of firing. Its most important feature was correction for both the distance from periscope to torpedo tube muzzle and for torpedo turning circle in the case of angled shots.
Freidman, British Submarines in Two World Wars
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by marcelo_malara »

dunmunro wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:35 am RN submarine torpedoes could use a 90 degree gyro angling but typically didn't as the time to turn caused inaccuracy. The basic RN Submarine Torpedo Director could calculate 0, and 90 degree target angles:
...The main problem it solved was to compensate for the turn a torpedo made when angled 90 ° (for a time continuous angling was contemplated, but it was rejected). Total production for the Royal Navy was just under 300, plus 80 made in the United States for the Soviet Navy. In effect the STD was a much better equivalent of the ‘Is-Was’. Inputs were own course (from gyro), range, current enemy bearing (from the periscope), estimated enemy course and desired track angle (angle between torpedo and enemy course). Unlike fire-control computers, the STD did not embody a model of the tactical situation (a position-keeper); its solution depended on what could be seen from the periscope at the moment of firing. Its most important feature was correction for both the distance from periscope to torpedo tube muzzle and for torpedo turning circle in the case of angled shots.
Freidman, British Submarines in Two World Wars
Well, that´s a serious limitation. Thanks for the data.
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by dunmunro »

marcelo_malara wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:01 pm
dunmunro wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:35 am RN submarine torpedoes could use a 90 degree gyro angling but typically didn't as the time to turn caused inaccuracy. The basic RN Submarine Torpedo Director could calculate 0, and 90 degree target angles:
...The main problem it solved was to compensate for the turn a torpedo made when angled 90 ° (for a time continuous angling was contemplated, but it was rejected). Total production for the Royal Navy was just under 300, plus 80 made in the United States for the Soviet Navy. In effect the STD was a much better equivalent of the ‘Is-Was’. Inputs were own course (from gyro), range, current enemy bearing (from the periscope), estimated enemy course and desired track angle (angle between torpedo and enemy course). Unlike fire-control computers, the STD did not embody a model of the tactical situation (a position-keeper); its solution depended on what could be seen from the periscope at the moment of firing. Its most important feature was correction for both the distance from periscope to torpedo tube muzzle and for torpedo turning circle in the case of angled shots.
Freidman, British Submarines in Two World Wars
Well, that´s a serious limitation. Thanks for the data.
It's less serious than it seems, because the RN also had very reliable torpedoes. They also trained the command staff in submarine attack procedures ( The Perisher course) using an advanced simulator, which produced very capable officers that could produce good attack setups in actual combat.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-r ... rine-17671
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by wadinga »

Hi All,

The site Byron splendidly referenced confirms site that the British Submarine Torpedo Director (STD) was inferior to both the German and US versions. Dunmunro's source confirms. The British could use a preset to alter the course of the torpedo after it left the tube, but apparently both the German and US systems allowed continuous adjustment of this angle during manoeuvring by the sub, relative to input direct from the ship's gyro.

The lack of such sophistications meant many British captains preferred to work using the old "Is-Was" slide rule device, and rely on pointing the sub down the derived firing track without setting a direction change in the torpedo. This has lead no lesser source than Peter Padfield "War Beneath the Sea" to state (I believe incorrectly) that British torpedoes could not be angled at all.

Given all this, any computer depended on the validity of the values entered, and estimating accurately from a few briefly snatched views through a periscope could not compare with the continuous stream of high quality data from rangefinders and directors to a gunnery fire control table. There was still scope for skill and feel from the man with his cap on back to front at the eyepiece.

Whilst pointing out the statistical reality that there were many more U-Boats than HM submarines, and with a much more target-rich environment, the flatter's list of successes should include Leipzig and Nurnberg hit with a single salvo from HMS Salmon and HMS Sterlet sinking the training cruiser Brummer but paying with her life in a counter attack. After the Norwegian invasion there were few opportunities to catch German ships at sea and so Italian warship victims predominated later in the war.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by marcelo_malara »

The ability to fire without pointing the sub is important in many cases. For example if you are following a target from its beam, you can do this for the time you like, verifying continually the target plot and the fire solution. If you can not angle the gyro you must continually approach the target to keep a fire solution for some time. If you use the 90° degree gyro the sub will be getting away of the target for the fire solution to be valid for some time.

Moreover, that the British engineers could not compute a salvo with gyro (which needs to solve mechanically a non linear equation), while Americans and Germans did, may imply that the computer was a little behind existing technology and less reliable than the others´powers.

Regards
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Re: British submarines' torpedo hits compared to German u-boats'

Post by paulcadogan »

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Very interesting and enlightening!
Byron Angel wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:25 pm Hi Paul,
We might want to avoid the temptation to draw conclusions without first having a look "under the surface" ... so to speak.
Byron, I agree, the details of each attack are important.
Mostlyharmless wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:06 pm The list of hits posted is rather biased as it omits several cases where a British warship suffered a single hit and survived. A more complete list is at https://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/warships.html and includes single hits to Barham, Malaya, Phoebe, Newfoundland, Birmingham, Nabob and Thane as well as a double hit on Edinburgh. We would need a list of complete misses as well to assess the "marksmanship" of the two navies.
Sorry, that wasn't my intention - and I actually did look at that site before posting, but I thought I'd focus mainly (but not exclusively) on the instances of multiple hits, but ended up including major sinkings as well (e.g. Ark Royal, Galatea, Hermione). But when you look at the ships damaged but not sunk, some of them were double hits.

In any case - as is said, you live and you learn! Here are some RN sub successes in sinking Italian cruisers:

1942 HMS Umbra vs Trento - already damaged by an aerial torpedo, sub hit caused rapid sinking.
1942 HMS Urge vs Giovanni delle Band Nere - 1 hit, broke ship in two, target sunk
1941 HMS Upright vs Armando Diaz - target sunk following magazine explosion

And Japanese cruisers:

1944 HMS Tally-Ho vs Kuma - 2 hits, target sunk
1945 HMS Trenchant vs Ashigara - 5 hits (!!!) target sunk ( :shock: you think??)
wadinga wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:02 pm Whilst pointing out the statistical reality that there were many more U-Boats than HM submarines, and with a much more target-rich environment, the flatter's list of successes should include Leipzig and Nurnberg hit with a single salvo from HMS Salmon and HMS Sterlet sinking the training cruiser Brummer but paying with her life in a counter attack. After the Norwegian invasion there were few opportunities to catch German ships at sea and so Italian warship victims predominated later in the war.
I totally missed the Leipzig-Nurnberg incident! Don't recall the Brummer though. :oops: Thanks!

But it's now clear that there was a bit of a challenge for the RN subs, at least in the early part of the war compared to their German or US counterparts. I do appreciate, as Dunmunro said, that there were significantly fewer RN subs vs significantly fewer targets so the statistical comparison was not all that valid but nevertheless, good information and discussion has resulted.
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