Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

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marcelo_malara
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by marcelo_malara »

HvKleist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:13 pm "Hung shell" = Hangfire = A malfunction that causes an undesired delay in the functioning of a firing system. (US DoD)

One of the survivors of EXETER reported this in his memoirs. Y turret was also having problems with its air blast (ejection) systems that caused a build-up of cordite fumes in the turret, too.
Thanks. I understand that it refers to a shell that was fired but igniting the charge later than usual?
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by marcelo_malara »

Are those memories published?

Regards
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Steve Crandell »

marcelo_malara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:31 pm
HvKleist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:13 pm "Hung shell" = Hangfire = A malfunction that causes an undesired delay in the functioning of a firing system. (US DoD)

One of the survivors of EXETER reported this in his memoirs. Y turret was also having problems with its air blast (ejection) systems that caused a build-up of cordite fumes in the turret, too.
Thanks. I understand that it refers to a shell that was fired but igniting the charge later than usual?
Yes. It's dangerous to open the breach before it cools down if the gun has been fired several times previously because the heat buildup can eventually set off the powder charge.
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Kev D »

First, happy days again for me, as back on my computer, but with minor modem connectivity problem (in new abode) that hopefully will be fully sorted today.
marcelo_malara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:29 pmWhat about this? The elevation of A and B seems to conform with the range of the battle.
Astute observation Marcelo! And is exactly what we first thought upon discovering wreck (and having read relevant docs / statements on same re a 'close-in' final engagement). Then we were told, by others more knowledgeable in such mechanical methods than us mere exploration divers, that those 8" guns had to be brought down to level or near level for reloading, so then we left it at that possibly being the case. But, given the various inputs to this thread, your / our first impression could actually be the case, i.e. that the fwd turrets were actually firing at targets - not reloading - and aft 8" are so elevated for an as yet undetermined reason.
marcelo_malara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:29 pmDon´t know what means "hung shell", but could''t the crew have elevated the guns to max angle for example to clear the guns for some reason?
My understanding is no, as as stated above, they had to be level or near level to reload, so one would 'assume'(?) they would have to be so to clear the breach. Anyone?

Below photo shows angle of foreguns upon sinking. Note how rear of turret basically aligns with / is same as the angle of front angled corner of deck house it sits atop of, and compare this to my previous schematic showing gun arcs (my post page 3 Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:30 am).
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0&start=30

EDIT: For some reason photo wont attach here even though it is smaller than max size allowed. Will try later or in separate post. And no even in a separate / following post it wont load either. Odd? Not so aparenty! If I sent the file to my tablet - which I have just done - and uploaded from there no problemo. Go figure!.
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Last edited by Kev D on Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Kev D »

marcelo_malara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:35 pmAbout the change of heading, a ship at sea with no power is subject to the effects of waves and wind, she would tend to put herself abeam to the waves.Regards
Yes, but..............................as can be seen from the photos you posted page 3, (and the one I am trying to post in previous thread,i.e. bow on photo) the waves and wind are light and coming from off the stbd bow of Exeter in the sinking photos. And that wind is coming from somewhere between east south east or south east according to Japaneses sources / their AAR maps / reports.

Also note that she did not 'dawdle' stationary anytime prior to sinking, but basically sunk while moving very slowly ahead with 'way-on' until sinking, according to British sources.
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

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HvKleist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:13 pmOne of the survivors of EXETER reported this in his memoirs. Y turret was also having problems with its air blast (ejection) systems that caused a build-up of cordite fumes in the turret, too.
While I do not doubt that survivors report re a 'hang-fire', and seem to recall hearing about problems in that turret before, another survivor whom I meet personally claimed to have seen the top blown completely off Y turret! But no, Y turret is fully intact. Hence why I am always cautious of placing full trust in survivors reports, as after all given the seriousness of the situation and the immediate danger to their life at the time, they had no doubt more on their minds than taking accurate notes so to speak. (Of course senior officers, etc, are trained more to be 'cool under pressure', but after after all they are human too.)

There is however, a rather massive hole in the hull above the waterline from an shell hit just forward of that aft turret, and the result of that is what the gent I met may have witnessed and mistaken for the turret's roof being blown off(?).
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Kev D »

Thanks for the detailed reply Bill!
Bill Jurens wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:38 pm......... It's reasonably likely that unless turrets were disabled early, they were indeed trained in the direction when effective action ceased. My impression is that elevation angles may change quite a bit upon sinking, but that turret training angles do not, unless the turrets detach from the main hull during the sinking process.
Please see my above photo of turret angle upon sinking which corresponds for how the fwd turrets are aligned on wreck.
Bill Jurens wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:38 pmOthers have since posted photos taken from Japanese aircraft showing Exeter sinking. So Japanese aircraft certainly were in the vicinity, and the turret gun elevations may have been run up before sinking in anticipation of engaging these aircraft. It appears that during the final stages -- and I could be wrong here -- the range to the most threatening Japanese targets was around 18000 yards. If so, this range could have been achieved with a gun elevation of something around 13 degrees. An elevation of 50 or 70 degrees is incompatible with a surface engagement range of around 18000 yards.
Understood. And again, now see above in reply to Marcelo's post re those fwd guns possibly being the ones 'in action', not reloading.
Bill Jurens wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:38 pmIt's hard to tell. Many ships as they loose way not under control tend to turn broadside to the original course, so the actual compass heading when sinking occurred can be fairly problematical. The orientation on the bottom may be similar to the orientation on the surface to be sure, but it's not clear that the orientation on the surface was actually known with any high degree of accuracy. Also, the effects of torpedo hits, which would increase resistance on one side of the ship but not the other, could result in some additional turning moment. Heading on the bottom can be considered suggestive, but unless there is other evidence to support the case that the orientation on the bottom is/was similar to the course maintained during the final stages of the action is -- at least in my opinion -- somewhat problematical.
See some pics re same below. As can be seen by hole left in seabed, wreck laid basically on an East - West axis. Also wind direction known from Jap AAR reports as being from ESE to SE, with from our pretty extensive experience in Java Sea, would tend more towards the south east as morning / day progresses.
Bill Jurens wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:38 pmHope this material is useful, and even interesting...
Both VERY helpful and certainly very interesting. THANKS ALL!
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Exeter-SINKING-70-DEGREE-COURSE.jpg
Exeter-SINKING-70-DEGREE-COURSE.jpg (160 KiB) Viewed 2129 times
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Exeter-sinking-DUE-EAST-COURSE.jpg (141.22 KiB) Viewed 2129 times
Exeter wreck heading from 2016 Survey - LEFT TO RIGHT LATITUDE LINE IS WEST TO EAST.JPG
Exeter wreck heading from 2016 Survey - LEFT TO RIGHT LATITUDE LINE IS WEST TO EAST.JPG (75.61 KiB) Viewed 2129 times
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

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Kev D wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:26 am My understanding is no, as as stated above, they had to be level or near level to reload, so one would 'assume'(?) they would have to be so to clear the breach. Anyone?
I think that once a shell is rammed into the breech it would not come out easy, so elevating the gun would make gravity help pulling it down and out.

Regarding your diagram of her heading respect to swell, I think you are correct. So far I see everything conform to history, you have to take Cap Gordon battle diagram as just how it was in a moment of the battle, a naval battle is dynamic and the ships move constantly changing geometry, a complete battle map would need to show the position of all combatants against time, would be composed of lines that change direction. Only question remaining seems to be the elevation of Y turret guns.
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

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Kev D wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:26 amMy understanding is no, as as stated above, they had to be level or near level to reload, so one would 'assume'(?) they would have to be so to clear the breach. Anyone?
marcelo_malara wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:43 pm I think that once a shell is rammed into the breech it would not come out easy, so elevating the gun would make gravity help pulling it down and out.
I'll have to let someone with more naval rechnology knowledge / methods than I to confirm (or negate) that one.
marcelo_malara wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:43 pm Regarding your diagram of her heading respect to swell, I think you are correct. So far I see everything conform to history, you have to take Cap Gordon battle diagram as just how it was in a moment of the battle, .
Well to be exact Capt. Gordon's drawing is 25mins before fatal hit.
marcelo_malara wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:43 pm.........a battle is dynamic and the ships move constantly changing geometry, a complete battle map would need to show the position of all combatants against time, would be composed of lines that change direction. Only question remaining seems to be the elevation of Y turret guns.
You mean something like below? And yes the question remains as to exactly why those aft main guns were so highly elevated. It could be as simple as Bill says (firing at aircaraft) or for some other unknown reason. We may yet discover that!

Re below: (Original) tmes shown in black / Japanese script is Japanese time (1.5 hours later than Allied in Java Sea area). Times added in red by me are Allied time. Chart is an official copy of the original from AAR report, which I have but is too large to post without losing all Jap notational details.

PS. Can someone / anyone say why sometimes attachments load as photos (as in my previous post) and why somtimes they post like this (kinda like a link), when the posting 'method'' used / image type is identical???
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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by marcelo_malara »

Hi Kev, thanks for the chart. If you wish to post any pict, no limit, you have to upload it to https://postimages.org/, once uploaded the page will show a number of links, copy the second one, Direct link, then here click in the Insert image icon, the 9th from left, and just past the copied link.

Going to the chart, yes, that´s what one would expect for a complete battle chart. Anyway, I must say, Cap Gordon´s describes pretty well the final half an hour of the engagement, with the Japanese cruisers a little aft of beam, the relative positions seems to have remained pretty constant in that time frame. Only the destroyers seems to be well aft of beam, so a possibility is that A and B could have been firing at them to spoil theirs torpedo attack.

The wind shown, 9 m/s, equals to 18 kt, no a low value for that zone. What appears to be azimuth to the sun, 80°, looks good for any latitude in near equinox, and as they were close to the Equator, the sun´s azimuth would remain pretty constant as it rises to midday. Note that the angle is not correctly drawn.
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Bill Jurens »

When track chart reconstruction is being attempted, two other factors -- especially in 'chases' should be kept in mind, particularly with respect to WWII technology.

One is that visual interference by 'own smoke' can be of some consequence, particularly if firing directly astern or nearly so, insofar as visual ranging can be severely compromised by funnel smoke trailing along the wake. Particularly if the air is calm, there can be similar difficulties with firing ships astern attempting to look down the smoke trail to the target at the end, and especially if the target is 'making smoke' on purpose.

The second is that, as appears to have been the case in Exeter, having the forward turrets, particularly 'B', trained very far aft would often place the gun muzzles uncomfortably close to the bridge, probably rendering the bridge wings untenable, and quite possibly exerting sufficient overpressures to cause bridge windows to fail. (It would probably be necessary for doors and windows to be kept open in many cases to allow for proper ventilation in tropical heat anyway.) The repeated muzzle blast near the bridge might heavily compromise effective command and control.

The latter issue, i.e. the potential for muzzle blast on after bearings, might best be explored using a well constructed and accurate model.

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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Steve Crandell »

I'm pretty sure I've read of ship's personnel on the bridge being seriously injured or even killed by the main battery firing on aft bearings.
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Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Kev D »

Gents, please pardon my absence from this topic of much interest to me for the last two weeks but have been AWL moving apartments, a bigger task than envisioned, both in moving / storing, and cleaning up. :negative:

Now in the process of unpacking / getting sorted and 'office' set up in new apartment, but just wanted to say while I had a moment to myself thanks for all the input! Some questions have certainly been answered, and others raised, such as - pardon the pun - the rear guns being (raised) to max for what reason(?).

Anyway, I see a few 'points' that I'll respond to when I can in above post/s- as still plenty of unpacking to do here for the moment - but, again, thanks for the input, it is much appreciated. :D
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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