Battleship Top Ten

From the Washington Naval Treaty to the end of the Second World War.
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Nellie
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Post by Nellie »

dunmunro wrote:
Karl Heidenreich wrote:

Very interesting, indeed dunmuro. I agree with you about Nelson, Nagato, Littorio and Richelieu. What´s your idea about them in terms of the list?
About KGV I don´t know... :think: The KGV was a 14 incher while Bismarck had the 15" which in modern vessels (as for WWII) was a lot of difference (well, two 14" shells of PoW were the ones that put Bismarck in serious trouble on May 24th...)

Kind regards
I would revise the list as follows:

1.Yamato Class
2. Iowa Class
3. South Dakota Class
4. North Carolina Class (tie)
5. Bismarck Class (tie)
6. KGV Class (tie)
7. Richelieu
8. Nelson Class
9. Nagato Class
10. Littorio Class

additionally, and I did not mention it in my previous post, Richelieu's all forward armament design, in only two turrets, is a disadvantage over KGV as well. The rather slow speeds of the SoDaks and NC is a decided disadvantage.
About your change in the list regarding Nelson and KGV, if i understand you right you´ll rather be on KGV than Nelson in a duel. I would not, and i am sure a lot of people here agree with me.
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Post by dunmunro »

Nellie wrote:About your change in the list regarding Nelson and KGV, if i understand you right you´ll rather be on KGV than Nelson in a duel. I would not, and i am sure a lot of people here agree with me.
KGV was at least 6 knots faster than Nelson, and had much better magazine and engine room armour protection, especially against diving shells. KGV could accept or decline battle against most opponents, Nelson could not. Nelson had more firepower, but less protection and speed. I'd far rather be on a KGV than Nelson in a, 1 on 1 with Bismarck, for example.
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Nellie
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Post by Nellie »

In terms of speed and armor you have right, but in my opinion Nelson had more reliable guns and i also think that the area where a 16inch shell can penetrate the armor on KGV is larger than the one were a 14 inch shell can penetrate Nelsons.
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Post by dunmunro »

Nellie wrote:In terms of speed and armor you have right, but in my opinion Nelson had more reliable guns and i also think that the area where a 16inch shell can penetrate the armor on KGV is larger than the one were a 14 inch shell can penetrate Nelsons.
Well, they were designed to fight the enemy, not each other, but KGV could always use her superior speed and avoid such a fight. We've discussed the reliability of KGV's armament before, and in comparison to other ships over a typical engagement length, they were just as reliable. Very few BBs are ever tasked to maintain a high RoF over a long period of time, especially in poor weather like the KGV and DoY were, and they performed well given the situation. Rodney fired more rounds than KGV, during Bismarck's final battle because she was much closer to Bismarck, and had a consistently better view of the target.
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Post by Tiornu »

KGV could always use her superior speed and avoid such a fight.
Then what good is she? Battleships aren't designed to run away. Battleships are designed to control the sea, which can't be done if the battleship insists on fleeing it.
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Post by dunmunro »

Tiornu wrote:
KGV could always use her superior speed and avoid such a fight.
Then what good is she? Battleships aren't designed to run away. Battleships are designed to control the sea, which can't be done if the battleship insists on fleeing it.
She waits until PoW shows up...:) Being able to pick and choose a fight is an advantage.

However, I didn't say KGV would avoid such a fight, only that she could.
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Post by Tiornu »

She waits until PoW shows up...:)
Now you're talking. Of course, there's nothing wrong with discussing individual ships, it's also worthwhile to discuss more strategic issues. This is why the German ships are something of an anomoly. How can we discuss them as battleships when they could never perform the job of a battleship? In strategic terms, we can call them giganto-cruisers. For cruisers, running away is part of the job description.
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RF
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Post by RF »

Tiornu wrote:.....the German ships are something of an anomoly. How can we discuss them as battleships when they could never perform the job of a battleship? In strategic terms, we can call them giganto-cruisers. For cruisers, running away is part of the job description.
Or, courtesy of Hitler and Reader, simply not allowed to do the job they were built for - Scharnhorst and Gneisenau fleeing from Renown, Scharnhorst not engaging the convoy escorting Malaya, and of course Bismarck allowing POW to disengage - all be it noted, under the command of Lutjens....

Note Marschall's comment when he attacked the Glorious - when warned that the carrier might be a battleship Marschall said ''we shall attack all the same.''
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

RF:
Or, courtesy of Hitler and Reader, simply not allowed to do the job they were built for - Scharnhorst and Gneisenau fleeing from Renown, Scharnhorst not engaging the convoy escorting Malaya, and of course Bismarck allowing POW to disengage - all be it noted, under the command of Lutjens....
:think: I have never liked Lutjens, specially for his role at DS and his willing to let Bismarck sunk under Hood´s and PoW´s fire.

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Post by lwd »

dunmunro wrote:... but KGV could always use her superior speed and avoid such a fight...
That really doesn't sound very British... :)

Maybe a better way of putting it is she could use her superior speed to force a fight or close rapidly.
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tommy303
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Post by tommy303 »

Note Marschall's comment when he attacked the Glorious - when warned that the carrier might be a battleship Marschall said ''we shall attack all the same.'
....and look where it got him.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
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wadinga
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It Got Him.....

Post by wadinga »

To Tommy 303,
.....The title of Joint Most Successful German Flag officer ever jointly with Von Spee at Coronel. In comparison Lutjens lost, Ciliax lost, Kummetz lost, Scheer lost and Hipper lost. Even Von Spee got wiped out in the second leg. Marschall was lucky he retired when he did.

It was just too bad he was batting for the wrong side, he should applied for a transfer. :wink:

All the Best
wadinga
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tommy303
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Post by tommy303 »

@Wadinga,

As they say, no good deed ever goes unpunished...certainly in Marschall's case. I'm afraid it's the sort of thing that happens when one has superiors who wish to micromanage events at sea instead of relying on the man on the scene.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
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Post by Tiornu »

Or, courtesy of Hitler and Reader, simply not allowed to do the job they were built for
Strictly speaking, we can't say precisely what job they were built for, but as they were battleships, we can infer their mission as the traditional one of battleships--fighting other battleships. This indeed reflects a bungle by Hitler and his crew, since there were never any prospects of deploying these ships for that role in a war against Britain.
I'll note that the Twins did not flee from Renown due simply to doctrine; they fled because their guns weren't working, and they thought a Nelson-class battleship was lurking nearby, not to mention torpedo-toting destroyers.
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RF
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Post by RF »

tommy303 wrote:
Note Marschall's comment when he attacked the Glorious - when warned that the carrier might be a battleship Marschall said ''we shall attack all the same.'
....and look where it got him.
Let's see: Germany's second biggest ship action success of WW2, the first being Bismarck sinking Hood - the sinking of an aircraft carrier and two destroyers in return for a torpedo hit on Scharnhorst which was the fault of Hoffman (Marschall was not even on board).
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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