Battleship Top Ten

Captain Morgan · Post by **Captain Morgan** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:43 pm

Tiornu wrote:So...there are eleven Top Ten ships?

Yes sort of like the Big Ten conference in Football. They added Penn State University so they have eleven teams but the name stayed the same.

RNfanDan · Post by **RNfanDan** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:28 pm

Yes and, just as with the addition of Penn State to our conference, there are still only ten real teams...

(....oops!)

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:54 pm

I don´t think any BB or BC in the list must be disregarded, they are all very powerfull ships that can prove to be lethal if underestimated. There are 11 because there is a draw in the first place and I don´t believe there are enough arguments to put one of them atop the other one (Yamato or Iowa). And I can say this because in all these months the criteria of the members of this very forum are split 50% - 50% between which one can defeat the other in a naval duel. My money is with Yamato, but that´s me! I know for sure there are people here in this forum that will die before to admit that an Iowa can be defeated by any contemporary!
So, it´s a draw and not because it´s a political correct (and cowardly) solution, but because of the inability to choose a winner between those two. In that case, and until someone come forward and stated a new argument, there are 11 ships in the top ten ship list. (Haven´t you read "The Three Musqueteers" : With D´Artagnan they were four actually).

Captain Morgan · Post by **Captain Morgan** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:11 pm

RNfanDan wrote:Yes and, just as with the addition of Penn State to our conference, there are still only ten real teams...

(....oops!)

Okay we can say there are eleven schools then.

Bgile · Post by **Bgile** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:33 pm

You did say "most powerfull", not "fastest". I feel that USS Tennessee and her sister ships (post modification) were more powerful than the KG5's which is the easiest class in the list to compare them with. Their 14" guns were more powerful and there were 12 of them.

It's all subject to opinion of course, and I think we all understand that. Personally, I don't think the Iowa class is anywhere near as "powerful" as the Yamato, although in actual combat radar would make a difference.

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:50 pm

Speed has an advantage and must be taken into account.

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:17 pm

Good! New ideas!

I have here the Tennesee specifications (but are the original ones, not post-modifications):

Laid down: 14 May 1917
Launched: 30 April 1919
Commissioned: 3 June 1920
Decommissioned: 14 February 1947
Stricken: 1 March 1959
Fate: Sold for scrap, 10 July 1959
General Characteristics
Displacement: 33,190 tons
Length: 624 ft (190 m)
Beam: 97.3 ft (29.7 m)
Draft: 31 ft (9.4 m)
Speed: 21 knots (39 km/h)
Complement: some officers, 1,401 men
Armament: 12 × 14-in. (356 mm) guns,
14 × 5-in. (127 mm) guns,
4 × 3-in. (76 mm) AA guns,
2 × 21-inch torpedo tubes

This I hate: "Fate: Sold for scrap, 10 July 1959 "

We cannot compare it with the KGV because we need her post-modernization specifications. Maybe someone can bring them forth. Meanwhile here are the specifications of the KGV Class, which 4 out of 5 units become "sold for scrap" too, in what seems to be the gratitude of nations to the machines that fought for them:

Laid down: 1 January 1937
Launched: 21 February 1939
Commissioned: 11 December 1940
Decommissioned: 1949
Fate: sold for scrap
Struck: 1957
General Characteristics
Displacement: 44,460 tons
Length: 745 feet/227.2 m
Beam: 103 feet/31.4 m
Draught: 35.5 feet/10.8 m
Propulsion: 140,000 hp
Speed: 27.5 knots (28.5 in an emergency)
Range: 4,750 nm at 18 knots
Complement: 1,314 to 1,631
Armament: 10 x 14-inch (356 mm) guns
16 x 5.25-inch (133 mm) guns
64 x 2-pounder pom-pom (40 mm)
Aircraft: 4 x Walrus

At least the PoW, one hell of a ship, went to the bottom fighting...

The KGV was six knots faster than pre-modernization Tennesee.

Best regards!

Bgile · Post by **Bgile** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:23 pm

USS Tennessee light AAA: 10 – quad 40mm, 43 – 20mm. Please note there is a big difference between 40mm Bofors guns and 2 lb pom pom, although you can call the latter 40mm because that is the bore diameter even though that wasn’t how it was commonly described. 40mm was chosen for Vanguard for obvious reasons.

Secondary / medium AAA: 16 5”/38 in 8 twin mounts as on the Iowa class (which had 2 more)

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:18 pm

The 40mm BOFOR was a vastly superior weapon to the 2 lb POM POM.

It didnt suffer the jams that the POM POM did, it used less ammo and was more accurate.

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:27 pm

Tennesee kept original machines (turboelectric) and boilers after refit. Installed hp was a mere 30000 hp, not a foe to KGV.

Bgile · Post by **Bgile** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:34 pm

marcelo_malara wrote:Tennesee kept original machines (turboelectric) and boilers after refit. Installed hp was a mere 30000 hp, not a foe to KGV.

Hi Marcelo,

I don't deny that speed can be an advantage, such as when attempting to escape or keeping up with fast carriers. It can also determine whether a ship is able to be at the right place at the right time.

How does it make a battleship more powerful? For example, if KGV engaged in a gunnery duel with Tennessee, how would KGV's speed help her, other than possibly allowing her to escape?

Incidentally, turboelectric drive was chosed for that class because it made the powerplant more survivable by improving subdivision. I believe this is also true of the CVs Lexington and Saratoga, which were not slow.

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:42 pm

Hi Bgile, I am not saying turboelectric was bad, inspite of it being a dead end. But speed was paramount, engaging, disengaging, manouvering to spoil an enemy firing solution, avoiding torpedoes, and so on. It must be taken into account. Sorry, but a ship making 21 kt can not be in the Top Ten.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:52 pm

Scharnhorst can make 32 knots

Tiornu · Post by **Tiornu** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:21 pm

Yes, somewhere around here I have a pithy quote from an admiral saying as much: once you're in a fight, a speed advantage isn't good for much of anything but running away. Unless you have wings, you can't use speed to spoil a firing solution in combat with these modern battleships. Though some US ships did have the ability to maneuver radically without spoiling their own FC solutions....

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:41 pm

Thanks for the Invite Karl, nice site and a thought provoking thread..

I can't argue with ANYTHING put down on this thread in relation to these majestic ships of WW2, but I would like to add an overlooked class that spanned WW1 and WW2, and served with great disctinction in both, The RN's Queen Elizabeth Class.

Revolutionary in 1915 when built, she was the first class of any Battleship/Cruiser to adapt Oil as her fuel, thus gaining a 4-5 knot advantage over her contemporaries at the time. Armed with 8 15 inch guns, and 13-15 inch layered steel, she was a combo of fast and strong, advancing the HMS Dreadnought idea by leaps and bounds in 9 short years!

Her Class of ships records in WW2 is astounding to say the least, being used in virtually every theater and providing a solid back bone to the RN. I often thought that meeting of a few of her class with the Bismarck/Tipitiz would have made for and interesting battle.

The Nagato survived until the A-bomb took her down in the bikini tests, thats enough for me to include her in the top ten list of most powerful.

Most pretty/nice looking WW2?

I have walked the deck of the USS Texas, moored in San Jacinto Texas, and she is as pretty of a ship as I have stood upon! Her class was one of the oldest active in the USA Navy for WW2, and served with great distinction....and she is still used today, albeit as a hurricane communications center. Isn't that just? She rides out hurricanes with the Local State Government operating 24/7 during disasters. Amazing!