Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

From the Washington Naval Treaty to the end of the Second World War.
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by dunmunro » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:23 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

... as you can read on the Cernuschi article on ADM 223-89 : " Our losses - A few hits by gunfire ", ... on March 28th, 1941.
Matapan_ADM_223_89.jpg
Bye Antonio :D
That passage undoubtedly refers to splinter (not damage but) hits.

Patrol boat BAHRAM:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_requisitioned_trawlers_of_the_Royal_Navy_(WWII)#B
Last edited by dunmunro on Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:55 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

I see, you are right, it was a different ship.

Anyway, the point is still valid, ... Adm Cunningham declared : no damages nor casualties.

ADM 223-89 tells something different : A few hits by gunfire on March 28th, 1941 at Cape Matapan.

A confirmation that on the Royal Navy events there is always something to be discovered after ... often still on RN Official documents like on Denmark Strait.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by dunmunro » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:10 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

I see, you are right, it was a different ship.

Anyway, the point is still valid, ... Adm Cunningham declared : no damages nor casualties.

ADM 223-89 tells something different : A few hits by gunfire on March 28th, 1941 at Cape Matapan.

A confirmation that on the Royal Navy events there is always something to be discovered after ... often still on RN Official documents like on Denmark Strait.

Bye Antonio :D
Antonio, your deep bias is showing - you're instantly convinced of a conspiracy when clearly there is no evidence of that except in your mind. No RN ship suffered damage sufficient to warrant submitting a damage report even though some splinters may have struck some RN ships and Cunningham stated that an aircraft was lost.

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by wadinga » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:32 am

All,

Admiral Cunningham's report reported one aircraft lost: Albacore "5G" Pilot Lt-Cdr Dalyell-Stead (posthumous DSO), Observer Lt Cooke and TAG Petty Officer Blenkhorn were killed.

There is no credible suggestion that any other casualties were suffered in the British ships.

Interestingly, according to S W C Pack Night Action off Matapan Barham's A arcs were not opened and X and Y turrets did not fire. He makes no mention of any detectable return fire.

Unprepared to fight at night? Were there no Italian language accounts of Jutland published???

Another Conspiracy Theory debunked....... Excellent work Dunmunro :clap: :clap: :clap:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:27 am

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

welcome back Sean, ... I thought you were still looking for the 335° at 06.20 on " The Plot " ... :wink:

Adm Cunningham declared no damages and no casualties.

Adm 223-89 declared hits received by gunfire.

In the Denmark Strait we know the reasons of the intentional " cover up " ... and the production of incorrect documents to bring it forward ... what about here ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by dunmunro » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:00 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

welcome back Sean, ... I thought you were still looking for the 335° at 06.20 on " The Plot " ... :wink:

Adm Cunningham declared no damages and no casualties.

Adm 223-89 declared hits received by gunfire.

In the Denmark Strait we know the reasons of the intentional " cover up " ... and the production of incorrect documents to bring it forward ... what about here ?

Bye Antonio :D
Cunningham's despatch states:
Be pleased to lay before Their Lordships the
attached reports of the Battle of Matapan, 27th-
30th March, 1941. Five ships of the enemy
fleet were sunk, burned or destroyed as per
margin.* Except for the loss of one aircraft
in action, our fleet suffered no damage or
casualties.


16. A battleship was sighted to the northward
at 1058. Half a minute later she opened an
accurate fire from about 32,000 yards and no
time was lost in altering to the southward,
increasing to full speed and making smoke.
ORION was the target for the first ten minutes
and the first salvos fell over. ORION was
straddled and suffered minor damage from a
near mass.


32. Except for flashing signals seen on the
port quarter, nothing further was seen of the
original damaged ship which the battlefleet had
been closing to investigate. (BARHAM was
unable to carry out searchlight sweeping procedure
on the port quarter owing to damage
to her searchlights by blast.)

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:36 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

you have translated and read Enrico Cernuschi article, so you should have realized that the HMS Barham searchlights were the area taken under fire by the Zara 37/54 mm gun.
37_mm_Breda_Zara.JPG
37_mm_Breda_Zara.JPG (23.03 KiB) Viewed 1239 times
HMS_Barham_searchlights.jpg
HMS_Barham_searchlights.jpg (37.77 KiB) Viewed 1239 times
Now I read on your attached version on Adm Cunningham despatch that :
HMS BARHAM was unable to carry out searchlight sweeping procedure on the port quarter owing to damage to her searchlights by blast.


It should be interesting now to realize Cernuschi theory, ... and to read Cdr George Stitt battle account ( apparently confirmed by the Duke of Edinburgh on board the Valiant during the battle ) from this book :
51258ghdltL.jpg
51258ghdltL.jpg (34.46 KiB) Viewed 1239 times
Do you have it ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by dunmunro » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:12 am

We don't need "theories" when Barham's and other RN action reports are available via the UK PRO.

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:42 am

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

even if it is mandatory to have and read the Official documents and dispatches, ... also the battle eyewitness accounts are important as we all know.

So I think I am going to purchase this book and when I have some time ... I will leave my Denmark Strait researches and read something more about the Mediterranean events.

This as well as Comandante Brengola deposition ... about that night.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by wadinga » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:03 pm

Hi All,
People in story:
Surgeon-Commander E.R.Sorley, RN
The following are extracts from censored letters written from the Barham by my father, Surgeon-Commander E.R.Sorley, RN. after the Battle of Matapan.

When you consider the "score", you will agree that the victory will go down in history as one of the most decisive of all time. 3 enemy cruisers, 2 large destroyers sunk and one battleship damaged, about 1,500 “Italians” written off - and on our side not one single ship damaged and not one man with so much as a scratch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peoples ... 4013.shtml
So the Doctor aboard Barham said no damage and no casualties. Please don't latch on to "censored" and announce that this is yet another case of RN records being "doctored"! :lol:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:07 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

just as I stated above to Duncan ( Dunmunro) :
... also the battle eyewitness accounts are important as we all know.
So I take your input and I will read carefully the other ones I have listed above.

Changing subject ... :wink:

Since you are all so good on finding Royal Navy details, ... why you do not find out for me a confirmation of Ltnt Cdr Sydney Hugh Pinchin duty on board the HMS Norfolk on May 1941 ... many thanks in advance.

Still I am waiting an agreement from your side about the 335° at 06.20 on " The Plot " ... being the correct bearing between Norfolk and Suffolk, ... just as I have explained to Duncan lately, ... just as RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker wrote on his Official report to Adm Tovey .


Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by dunmunro » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:49 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

just as I stated above to Duncan ( Dunmunro) :
... also the battle eyewitness accounts are important as we all know.
So I take your input and I will read carefully the other ones I have listed above.

Changing subject ... :wink:

Since you are all so good on finding Royal Navy details, ... why you do not find out for me a confirmation of Ltnt Cdr Sydney Hugh Pinchin duty on board the HMS Norfolk on May 1941 ... many thanks in advance.

Still I am waiting an agreement from your side about the 335° at 06.20 on " The Plot " ... being the correct bearing between Norfolk and Suffolk, ... just as I have explained to Duncan lately, ... just as RearAdm W.F. Wake-Walker wrote on his Official report to Adm Tovey .


Bye Antonio :D
Haven't we had long discussions about the accuracy of these bearings? You need to put error bars on them of ~+/- 5 degrees.

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:48 am

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

I see, ... for you is just a matter of tolerances.

For me is much more than that ... and as said, ... it is ok to keep our own different opinions about it.

If by chance you are able to find out Pinchin duty that day ... that will help understand what really happened ... and confirm why it happened on that way.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by wadinga » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:34 pm

Hello Antonio,

No, let's not change the subject..............Matapan!

I love the way you airily try to dismiss the Doctor's account as if it is of merely equal value to something some Italian survivor thought he saw in his rescuers' wardroom about a "hundred casualties". :wink:

The good Doctor further says
I was in the Wardroom with several others including Bert Moncrieff and the Pay when we heard the sound of gunfire seemingly far off. The Pay and I made for the boat deck, hoping to see what was happening, I was leading, and just as I pushed open the bulkhead door leading to the boat deck, our port after 15-inch guns opened fire. I was blasted back into the Pay's arms - quite unhurt - and firstly with the impression that the half deck had sustained a hit. The padre was actually on the boat deck near the guns; he was blown off his feet and almost went over the side. It was his first exposure to gunfire let alone gunfire at night, so you can imagine what a shock he got. Naturally, we all proceeded to our stations after this.
.......
The “Italians” were taken completely by surprise, their guns being trained fore and aft so that they had no hope of answering our attack. Their only response was a torpedo attack from a destroyer which was quite ineffective. Barham got the Fiume, as I told you before.
.......
The engagement is unique in history as the only night action at close range. The range was so close that if the Italians had had time to open fire, we might have received considerable damage, too. However, all was well.
So Pack is certainly wrong and Barham's after turrets fired at least one salvo, with a shock wave on extreme forward bearing sufficient to blow the Doctor and Padre off their feet and also smash the searchlights. The Doctor is quite specific, no casualties at all. No return fire at all.

The terms revisionist and apologist have been bandied about in these threads, but when reviewing Enrico Cernuschi's highly..errm, how can I put this......motivated :cool: studies on Punto Stilo and Matapan, the term that springs immediately to mind is fantasist!

Antonio, please desist from emulating him.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

Steve Crandell
Senior Member
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: Cape Matapan and Italian WWII fighting procedures

Post by Steve Crandell » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:32 pm

A small nitpick: It was obviously not the "only night action at close range" of the war. Maybe that wasn't what he meant.

Post Reply