OPERATION PEDESTAL

[aurora]

So PEDESTAL was not a success;it had failed to achieve what it was planned to do-so how much of a failure was it judged to be by the Admiralty bearing in mind both Mercantile and Royal Navy losses and I daresay it would be highly unlikely for their Lordships to even hint at the truth

[dunmunro]

So PEDESTAL was not a success;it had failed to achieve what it was planned to do-so how much of a failure was it judged to be by the Admiralty bearing in mind both Mercantile and Royal Navy losses and I daresay it would be highly unlikely for their Lordships to even hint at the truth

Pedestal was designed to keep Malta from surrendering, so on that score alone it was a success, and as I showed Malta didn't just remain passive after Pedestal; it carried out offensive anti-shipping operations and defeated a renewed Axis aerial offensive.

[paulcadogan]

So PEDESTAL was not a success;it had failed to achieve what it was planned to do-so how much of a failure was it judged to be by the Admiralty bearing in mind both Mercantile and Royal Navy losses and I daresay it would be highly unlikely for their Lordships to even hint at the truth

Tell that to the Maltese. I was there last year May and had a brief (but amazing!) opportunity to explore their war museum. A lot is dedicated to Pedestal and the epic struggle of the tanker Ohio - THE most crucial ship in the convoy as the fuel situation was such that everything was in danger of shutting down - even the minesweepers that had to clear mines that were being continuously laid by Axis aircraft would not have been able to put to sea. Food was running out. The Governor of Malta was on the verge of declaring capitulation had the Ohio and the few others not made it and discharged their precious cargoes.

The Deputy Governor Sir Edward Jackson wrote:

...the situation of the civil population is the same as that of any other section of the fortress in that it can hold out if sufficient supplies are received, and cannot if they are not. If the civil population collapses, the whole fortress collapses.

From "Malta Convoy" by Shankland & Hunter (Peter Shankland was on HMS Speedy during the operation)

Food and fuel foremost, then the ammo needed for defense. The calculated "target" date range for capitulation by General Dobbie, the Governor - no relation to Harry Potter's little friend - was between August 31 and September 7. On August 10, the Pedestal convoy came through the Gibraltar Strait with the clock was ticking. Enough supplies got through...

So, for the Maltese, Pedestal was a success, for the Allies an extremely costly one - but the objective of preventing the civil collapse of Maltese society, preventing the island from capitulating to the enemy was achieved.

[pgollin]

.........The escort was as large as possibly available at the time - and still suffered heavy losses. .........

NO (tediously, again).

As mentioned, because of the minefields the large escort could not go all the way to Malta, meaning that the convoy would be (and was KNOWN to be) vulnerable.

The Strategists knew what they were doing.

.

[alecsandros]

.........The escort was as large as possibly available at the time - and still suffered heavy losses. .........

NO (tediously, again).

As mentioned, because of the minefields the large escort could not go all the way to Malta, meaning that the convoy would be (and was KNOWN to be) vulnerable.

The Strategists knew what they were doing.

.

What is the correlation between my post and your reply.... ?

[aurora]

If Pedestal was a success-it had to be only minimal in it;s achievement-I just cannot concede more.
Seasonal Greetings to all

[dunmunro]

If Pedestal was a success-it had to be only minimal in it;s achievement-I just cannot concede more.
Seasonal Greetings to all

The purpose of Pedestal was to ensure that Malta held out and would continue to tie down large numbers of Axis aircraft and continue be a base of offensive operations to cripple Axis supply to Africa. Malta did hold out, it did tie down large numbers of Axis aircraft and it did continue to be a base for offensive operations against Axis supply routes.

[alecsandros]

If Pedestal was a success-it had to be only minimal in it;s achievement-I just cannot concede more.
Seasonal Greetings to all

The purpose of Pedestal was to ensure that Malta held out and would continue to tie down large numbers of Axis aircraft and continue be a base of offensive operations to cripple Axis supply to Africa. Malta did hold out, it did tie down large numbers of Axis aircraft and it did continue to be a base for offensive operations against Axis supply routes.

Dear Duncan,
The quantities delivered by Pedestal were small, and barely insured survival. Continous resupply efforts were done with submarines and warships carrying vital supplies. The relief came in Nov 1942, through operation Stoneage. In the same time (Aug - Oct 1942), several carrier operations ensured deliveries of some 100 badly needed Spitfires.

The overall resuply effort of June - Nov 1942 was successfull, but Pedestal on it's own can hardly be seen as a success - except perhaps in terms of morale ... There simply were to many losses in men , ships and material to see it as a "victory".

[pgollin]

Dear Duncan,
The quantities delivered by Pedestal were small, and barely insured survival. Continous resupply efforts were done with submarines and warships carrying vital supplies. The relief came in Nov 1942, through operation Stoneage. In the same time (Aug - Oct 1942), several carrier operations ensured deliveries of some 100 badly needed Spitfires.

The overall resuply effort of June - Nov 1942 was successfull, but Pedestal on it's own can hardly be seen as a success - except perhaps in terms of morale ... There simply were to many losses in men , ships and material to see it as a "victory".

You argue against yourself - that Pedestal "insured survival" but that "Pedestal on it's own can hardly be seen as a success" ! (The "on its own" is the give away that your argument is false. What was the volume and type of supplies delivered by submarines and minelayers ? And how are spitfire deliveries relevent ? )

Your idea that the losses were "too many" wasn't shared by the people in charge - it is merely the Italian revisionists desperately trying to claim a strategic defeat as a tactical victory.

.

[dunmunro]

Dear Duncan,
The quantities delivered by Pedestal were small, and barely insured survival. Continous resupply efforts were done with submarines and warships carrying vital supplies. The relief came in Nov 1942, through operation Stoneage. In the same time (Aug - Oct 1942), several carrier operations ensured deliveries of some 100 badly needed Spitfires.

The overall resuply effort of June - Nov 1942 was successfull, but Pedestal on it's own can hardly be seen as a success - except perhaps in terms of morale ... There simply were to many losses in men , ships and material to see it as a "victory".

The quantities delivered by submarine and surface ships was very small compared to Pedestal. Only two warships were sent after PEDESTAL and before STONEAGE:

HMS MANXMAN - MANXMAN sailed from Port Said 10.11.42 and Alexandria 11.11 loaded with 350 tons of varied foodstuffs and 200 passengers, arriving at Malta during the afternoon of 12.11 without incident, to discharge her cargo.

Operation ANALYST - A final passage by WELSHMAN from the UK with stores for Malta, sailing from Plymouth 1.11.42 having loaded 110 tons of powdered milk, 25 tons of dried beans, 25 tons of dried peas, 110 tons of corned beef and fifteen 18" aerial torpedoes; 13 officers, 50 RAF airmen and 50 REME other ranks were also embarked. The ship was routed via Gibraltar and Algiers and, delayed by weather in the Mediterranean, sailed from Algiers pm 17.11 arriving at Malta am 18.11.
http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-MaltaSupply03.htm

in addition 11 submarines carried supplies to the island, but in each case the total was less than 150 tons per submarine., with the average much less than that, maybe 50 tons. In most cases the subs arrived to start a tour of duty.

So we can see that supply, other than Convoy was minuscule and amounted to less than 2000 tons between PEDESTAL and STONEAGE, compared to ~50000 tons delivered by PEDESTAL.

PEDESTAL was a success and allowed Malta to play a vital role in interdicting Axis supply from Sept to Nov 1942.

[Steve Crandell]

So PQ-17 was also a success, because it delivered 70,000 tons of supplies to Russia, which was desperately locked in a war with Germany. In fact, pretty much every convoy in WWII was a success. I don't know of any that were completely destroyed.

[dunmunro]

So PQ-17 was also a success, because it delivered 70,000 tons of supplies to Russia, which was desperately locked in a war with Germany. In fact, pretty much every convoy in WWII was a success. I don't know of any that were completely destroyed.

If the Soviets had stated that a minimum tonnage from PQ-17 was required to keep them in the war, and that minimum tonnage was supplied, then we could count PQ-17 as a success.

Of course the supply of 70k tons to an industrialized nation of ~170 million made little difference to the USSR's survival. Whereas ~50k tons to Malta, with a population of ~.3 million, meant the difference between surrender and continued existence as an Allied base, conducting offensive operations, in the Central Med at a time when the 8th Army was in retreat and Malta's existence caused considerable damage to Rommel's LOS.

[Byron Angel]

I think that Dunmunro makes a fair argument. Viewing Pedestal as a single unique case, the immediate and necessary goal was achieved despite the terrific losses. Viewed from a broader perspective, though, continued supply of Malta in the face of continued such opposition and losses would almost certainly have proven unsustainable.

B

[pgollin]

.

Pedestal, as with all the Mediterranean convoys - Italian or British, were all part of the North African war and, in the final analysis, the British moved sufficient materials to keep Malta in the game, whilst the Italians (with the help of a lot of German idiocy) failed to move sufficient (despite the revisionists' claims).

.

[alecsandros]

I think that Dunmunro makes a fair argument. Viewing Pedestal as a single unique case, the immediate and necessary goal was achieved despite the terrific losses. Viewed from a broader perspective, though, continued supply of Malta in the face of continued such opposition and losses would almost certainly have proven unsustainable.

B

... Reading about the summer 1942 convoys (Vigorous, Harpoon, Pedestal) we see that the British drive was very powerfull, and they made every effort to deliver supplies, even in the face of heavy losses. In this context, Pedestal was a success (because Vigorous and Harpoon were blocked by the Italian/German forces ).
But losing 70% of cargo, 1 carrier , 2 cruisers and 1 destroyer can hardly be seen as a victory in the context of the war.