Force Z

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Dave Saxton
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Force Z

Post by Dave Saxton »

A place to to put any comments, questions, information about Force Z. This topic is coming up in other topics and I assume it will be of interest with Dec 10th approaching. I have always found the fate of Force Z very interesting. In another topic the issue of Force Z's radar failures came up:
Dave Saxton » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:02 pm

Thorsten Wahl wrote:
"with regard to the events on December, 10th, 1941 the performance of british radar of 1941 leaves me a little bit sceptical, as japanese ships and Force Z have been missed each other by about 5 miles according M. Middlebrook, P. Mahoney - "Battleships"."
I ran across RAF documents by accident that indicated the Type 273 (10cm surface search) wasn't operational. It died on the trip to the far east. They brought in RAF techs at Singapore to try and get it going before they sailed but it proved hopeless.

Brown also wrote that the 282 sets used to range for light flak were also down.

At the time of the close enccounter with Ozawa's cruisers they had just shut down the 3.3 meter 281. It was an air warning set mainly so it was normally not operated at night in 1941.

They normally would not operate the remaining 50 cm sets in continuous operation due to the problem of burning out key vacuum tubes and it would take a long time before they would be warmed up enough to use without some fore warning time.

Repulse had a 1.5 meter 286* but it almost always proved more or less useless for surface search tasks. The 286 version for submarines was finally given over to air warning exclusive use, along with a new 3cm surface search set in combination, on submarines during 1945.

* It was 286P model so an improvement over Norfolk's 286M by not using a fixed antenna.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Force Z

Post by Dave Saxton »

I have been re-reading M&M's "Battleship" book again recently as well as Russel Grenfell's "Main Fleet to Singapore". In hind sight it appears a great military blunder. As tensions in the far east approached the breaking point the British Admiralty put in to motion a long standing plan to send a battle fleet to Singapore. It was to consist of several R class and other older battleships. Churchill (correctly) thought this folley and presented a plan to send a modern KGV and a couple of consorts instead. Churchill's reasoning as explained in memos to the First Sea Lord was that a KGV could have the same affect on Japanese plans that the Tirpitz was having on British naval dispositions. In hind sight of course this was also folly but it certainly indicates that London didn't understand how committed the Japanese were to war.

The Far East Command had studied the problem earlier and had requested instead of a battle fleet 518 modern aircraft. The tradegy of the affair was that the British had the modern aircraft to spare and could have sent them. Even a few modern fighters could have operated in support of Force Z as it was -had they been there. Prince of Wales and Repulse were sunk only 150 miles from land based fighter air fields. At the time the High Command of course didn't want to send over 500 modern aircraft away from a hot war zone to a still as yet peaceful theater of operations. That is understandable if they did not understand what was really going on in the far east.

Only a few months hence and Bomber Command would conduct the first 1000 bomber raid against Germany. Harris didn't want to send away any bombers. Fighter Command was under employed though. The Germans had withdrawn all their fighters except two geschwaders from the channel coast. The British fighters were instead conducting the "Non Stop Offensive" of fighter sweeps over France trying to intice the German fighters to come up and fight. They only did so when conditions favored them. The Germans called it the "Nonsense Offensive". Too bad for Force Z no modern fighters were sent.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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RNfanDan
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Re: Force Z

Post by RNfanDan »

The greater failure was that of ignoring an important inter-war "technical mission" to the western Pacific, made by Adm. Jellicoe (IIRC?), whose assessment of Britain's capabilities in defending her eastern empire holdings were best served not by Singapore, but other locations. Singapore however, was "chosen" but despite being built, was never better than a forward outpost--even if it had been completed (which it wasn't).

Apart from economic issues, Singapore was hamstrung by supply problems, lack of natural resources, and relatively isolated from a political standpoint. Unlike Ceylon, Singapore had no natural harbor, poor defenses, and just getting TO the place from the UK was a very real problem--as the later Mediterranean War quickly demonstrated (i.e., cut off the Suez or Sicilian Channel, and the only way to reach the outpost was via a long journey around Africa).

It was both, a "kite without a breeze" and too small/remote to be relied upon. I believe Jellicoe had a FAR better idea in basing a major naval force at Australia but sadly, it was declined...such is history. Complacency, obstinance, shallow pockets, and a lack of vision by Britain's military and civilian leadership, at times when it most mattered, failed.

Churchill simply became the final bearer of the burden laid upon him, but he was incapable of recognizing matters. Again, such is history.

By the way, another fine post by you, Mr. Saxton. Good stuff!
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northcape
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Re: Force Z

Post by northcape »

I remember reading somewhere that Tovey opposed the idea of sending a KGV to the Pacific because of some specific shortcomings of the ventilation system with regard to the higher water/air temperatures compared to the North Atlantic. I don't remember what exactly was his concern, but it seemed like the fast sinking of the POW had also something to do with the ventilation system (quicker flooding?). I suppose I mix a few things up - maybe somebody can help me out.
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Force Z

Post by Dave Saxton »

northcape wrote:I remember reading somewhere that Tovey opposed the idea of sending a KGV to the Pacific because of some specific shortcomings of the ventilation system with regard to the higher water/air temperatures compared to the North Atlantic. I don't remember what exactly was his concern, but it seemed like the fast sinking of the POW had also something to do with the ventilation system (quicker flooding?). I suppose I mix a few things up - maybe somebody can help me out.

M&M indeed include Tovey's comments on this issue on pg 52 citing ADM 199/2232. Tovey commented that the recent deployments to the Med revealed that ventilation and evaporator systems then on a KGV were completely inadequate for tropical service. He also pointed out that the variable speed pumps for the 14" turrets had been proven prone to failure and their failure should be expected in a tropical enviroment leaving the functioning of the main armament in peril.

There is some question if the water-tightness of the battleship had been compromized by the crew trying to get improved ventilation in stiffling tropical heat.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Force Z

Post by Dave Saxton »

An interesting quote from the M&M book:
...but the storey of fighter cover is central to the tragedy of Repulse and Prince of Wales. The RAF had earmarked The Australian 453 squadron as Fleet Defense Squadron, and its commander discussed the problems and opprotunities avialable with the Air Liaison Officer on Admiral Phillips's staff before Force Z sailed. Flight Lieutenant Vigors estimated that if his squadron used the air fields on the east coast of Malaya, " I could keep a standing patrol of six aircraft over the fleet at all times during daylight providing the fleet did not go more than 100 miles north of Kota Bharu and further than 60 miles from the coast at any time." But this plan was not adopted, much to Vogor's disgust.
Of couse the Japanese capture of these air fields made that plan less workable, but when Prince of Wales and Repulse knew an air strike was possible on the 10th and tracked shadowing aircraft on radar, Phillips did not call for fighter protection even though they were only 150 miles from Singapore. IIRC, Kuantan also contained an air field still in British hands. Was Phillips so over confident in the AA capabilities of Prince of Wales that he saw no need?
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Force Z

Post by Dave Saxton »

Phillips apparently held little regard for Japanese air power's potential to affect his battleship:

pg -181,183
Lieutenant Commander RF Harland Prince of Wales's torpedo officer remarked, " I think they are going to do a torpedo attack" Harland can not be sure of the exact wording of Phillip's reply, but bieves it to have been, " No they're not! There are no torpedo aircraft about."
But that is exactly what they did and Prince of Wales did not fight them off well:
The Japanes planes now presented a good, no defelection, target for the eight 5.25-inch guns on Prince of Wales's port side. These guns were controlled in two groups. Sub Lieutenant Hopkinson was in charge of the after group, and in post action report shows that the Japanese aircraft were soon within range and he had commenced his run of information to the plotting table; but " permission to fire from the Air Defense Position was so slow in being passed that I had to to request it. Not till then was it given. I could have opened earlier but for this." All eight 5.25-inch guns opened fire with a crash and settled down to fire five salvoes at the approaching Japanese. They were soon joined by the single Bofers guns on the quarter deck, manned by the royal Marines, then by the four sets of 8 barrelled Pom -Poms steadily pumping out 2 pounder shells, and finally, the Oerlikons and machine guns. The guns were all firing well, but no planes were seen to be hit...After firing 12 salvoes the 5.25-inch guns had given up the controlled fire on individual planes and had gone over to barrage fire in which the shells were fired to explode in a wall ahead of the approaching aircraft in an attempt to make them drop their torpedoes too early. It was easy to use dramatic phrases like "curtain of fire" and "wall of death" but the Japanese seemed to fly right through the 5.25-inch barrage and the increasing fire of the close range guns apparently unharmed....whether it was the unexpected height and speed of the Japanese approach or the wheel to port that Prince of Wales now making, but this battleship was certainly not fighting off this aircraft attack.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
ede144
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Re: Force Z

Post by ede144 »

Question:
KM used it's main artillery against bomber and torpedo bomber attacks to disturb the approach. Was this uncommon in the RN?
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Re: Force Z

Post by alecsandros »

@Dave,

I remember that PRince of Wales AA fire control radars were not properly functioning at the time of the engagement, and ranging was done mostly without electronic equipment ?

Anyway, many say that her loss was also a matter of conjecture and bad luck...
The Japanese torpedo bombers attacked in several waves, and maybe each of them could have been handled adequately, provided that the last of the 8 torpedoes launched by the first attack group wouldn't have hit the Prince of Wales so badly as it had...
The first torpedo caused a list of 12 degrees, cut out power to most of the AA mountings and reduced speed to 16kts.

Thus the subsequent attacks had a much easier job to do... And with the Prince of Wales so badly hurt, the Repulse, which had a far poorer AA defense, could not hope to resist the assaults...

---

By that time, no other capital ships had been sunk by air attacks while under way, so this is why Phillips was probably so confident. What is interesting however is that allthough battleships were hard to sink by air attacks alone, they could be crippled with relative ease, provided the attacks hit some vulnerable areas.
And, 6 months earlier, Bismarck was also crippled by a lucky aerial torpedo hit to the aft section of the ship.. exactly as the Prince of Wales...

Yet the british battleship had considerably more AA capability in Dec 1941 than the Bismarck had in May. Furthermore, she was being escorted by 1 battlecruiser and 4 destroyers, all adding serious AA capability [unlike the Bismarck, that remained alone...]

cheers,
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Force Z

Post by Dave Saxton »

As far as I know it still had the 285s used to range for the heavy flak. The radars that were out that I know of were the 273 surface search and the 282s, used to range for the light flak. The 285s didn't help.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: Force Z

Post by paulcadogan »

Not sure how many have read this document about PoW's sinking - so for those who haven't.....enjoy!

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/hms/ ... laysis.pdf
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Re: Force Z

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
Having read a couple of books on the sinking of Pow & Repulse I cannot help but to think that the whole set up was a monumental mistake. To send one of your latest Battleships and an elderly Battlecruiser out to the far east in the vain hope that the Japanese would be overawed by their presemce when the Jap fleet was far stronger in capital ships most of which could have sunk them both without too much effort seems to me utterly irresponsible. If those in command really did not think there was much danger to their ships from a torpedo attack they plainly did not learn the lesson from the one that crippled Bismarck. If Churchill was behind this then it shows a complete lack of appreciation of the situation out there.
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Re: Force Z

Post by northcape »

paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
Having read a couple of books on the sinking of Pow & Repulse I cannot help but to think that the whole set up was a monumental mistake. To send one of your latest Battleships and an elderly Battlecruiser out to the far east in the vain hope that the Japanese would be overawed by their presemce when the Jap fleet was far stronger in capital ships most of which could have sunk them both without too much effort seems to me utterly irresponsible. If those in command really did not think there was much danger to their ships from a torpedo attack they plainly did not learn the lesson from the one that crippled Bismarck. If Churchill was behind this then it shows a complete lack of appreciation of the situation out there.
In hindsight, it was a monumental mistake, but two things come to mind here: Force Z was supposed to have a modern aircraft carrier included (Illustrious?), but it didn't make it there in time - so it was not only two BS/BC which should threaten the Japanese.
Further, at this time, everybody in the western hemisphere looked at the Japanese as second-class nation/military force. It needed Pearl Harbour and the destruction of Force Z to show the Brits and the Americans that they are in the same league. Up to then, it was not in the mindset of the Brits that an Asian nation is technologically as advanced as them.
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Re: Force Z

Post by Tom17 »

AIUI, Formidable was supposed to join Force Z at a later date.
She ran aground during working up in the Caribbean and was therefore even further delayed.
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Re: Force Z

Post by RNfanDan »

The matter was more than a mere mistake; MUCH more, in my opinion.

I can highly recommend two fine volumes (they should be available through libraries).

For historical context and "setting the stage":
Bloody Shambles: Volume 1 {Shores/Cull/Izawa}

For evidence that it went beyond a mere mistake or the fog of war:
Hostages to Fortune {Arthur Nicholson}

There are several other fine books and accountings of Force Z's demise which I have read (and can also recommend), but the two I've listed above are the most potent and informative.

--Dan
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