Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

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miro777
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Post by miro777 »

hey....

could someone please explain the forecastle concept

Im not really sure wat is meant by that term in english...

miro
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

The forecastle is an enclosed level built on the the upper deck, that goes from the bow to some point between amidships and the stern. It is covered by the forecastle deck, over which are mounted the bow turrets and the superstructure. So a battleship with forecastle has two complete (meaning "a deck that goes from bow to stern") decks above the waterline, plus the forecastle, for a total of three decks. A flush deck battleship (like Bismarck and Scharnhorst) has only two decks above the waterline, which keeps the guns closer to the waves.
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Post by RNfanDan »

Dictionary definitions:

1. The section of the upper deck of a ship located at the bow forward of the foremast.
2. A superstructure at the bow of a merchant ship where the crew is housed.

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RF
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Post by RF »

RNfanDan wrote:It may be of use to point out here, that Kennedy initially believed he was encountering Admiral Scheer, not S&G. Even when the second twin came into view, there was confusion and apparently, no immediate realization that it was S&G. Rawalpindi's enemy contact report bears this out.

In any case, Kennedy evidently did make an effort to escape, but the Germans responded, preventing the ship from getting away. It would be difficult to find a Royal Navy officer, thus disposed, that would surrender at sea. It just wasn't the RN way.
This was the actual situation, except that Kennedy identified his assailant as Deutschland, not Admiral Scheer. For most of the rest of WW2 the British assumed that Deutschland sank Rawalpindi - for example, Fleet Air Arm air crews detailed to attack this ship in June 1941 were told ''this is the ship that sank Rawalpindi.''
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by charles nicholls »

I wish Kennedy had run or scuttled, My granddad went down on Rawalpindi.
Kennedy's son wrote a memoriam to the crew as follows and was given to the families of the crew.
In Memoriam
seaman charles edward nicholls, HMS Rawalpindi.
On 24th November 1939, H.M.S Rawalpindi an armed merchant ship, fought an epic battle of the coast
of Iceland with the German pocket battleship "Deutchland" and another enemy warship.
The Rawalpindi was sunk with the loss of all but 43 of her officers and men.
-------------------------------------------
A son's memory

Roll on proud wavesand icy seasa roll on
Where Rawalpindi breathed her last, tell forth How she despised and scorned the Nazi wrath
Roll on proud waves where her pround sons have gone.

Tell how beneath the fading Arctic light this one time liner fought with puppet guns
Deutchland the steel clad showboat of the Huns, the vaunted star of Nazi naval might.

Let there be no regret nor tears be shed by those whose husbands, fathers, sons have died
Rather let gladness hearten them and pride in knowing loving such immortal dead.

They fought against a foe whose strength, whos speed made murder out of honest battle
Although their end they knew, gladly they met defeat and each man gloried in the deed.

Bear them aloft from the deep ocean bed to rest in peace with those of former years
Who held the seas for England. England fears no mortal foe whilst she has these, her dead.

composed by Luduvic Kennedy aged 20 son of Captain Kennedy who went down with Rawalpindi.

As a strange turn of events my father was a midshipman on HMS Duke of York at North Cape.
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by paulcadogan »

Hello Charles,

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you so much for your post and I think I speak for all forum members when I say it's an honour to hear from a descendant of our WW2 heroes! :clap:

That is indeed a strange twist of fate that your grandfather was lost on Rawalpindi and your father was aboard the Duke for Scharnhorst's demise. I wonder what is was like for him to find out later that Scharnhorst and not Deutschland was responsible for Rawalpindi's sinking!

Also, I didn't know Ludovic Kennedy was the son of Rawalpindi's captain. Thanks for that tidbit.

As for the topic of this old thread, I'd vote for Kennedy getting the VC. He, his crew and their ship were put in a position that they ought not to have been. An AMC should not have been patroling against a possible warship breakout as the outcome of any encounter would have been a foregone conclusion - and it came to pass. Just as Courageous should not have been hunting U-boats in September 1939 - a waste of a valuable carrier. The RN learned the hard way and Captain Kennedy, your grandfather and so many others paid with their lives so gallantly.

Paul
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by RF »

The function of Rawalpindi was to enforce the maritime blockade of Germany by intercepting merchant ships bound for that country, a job given to AMC's because the regular warships had other duties.
Attack by battleships on AMC's was never realistically considered, but if an AMC comes across a warship breakout, what is it supposed to do? The warship is invariably faster than the AMC, so the AMC is forced to either fight or scuttle. And the RN is not in the habit of showing the white flag.

The problem with the AMC's used by the British was that as passenger liners they presented large targets to an enemy with slender means of fighting back. Whilst adequate for merchant ship inspection, they fell victim to all types of enemy forces, including stukas, Jap aircraft carriers, mines, U-boats, hilfskreuzer, pocket battleships and in this case battleship attack.
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by paulcadogan »

Thanks for the clarification RF. But...were AMC's still utilized in that role (the Northern Patrol) after Rawalpindi?

Obviously they were used as convoy escorts (Jervis Bay) and patrolled distant waters where IIRC they had one or two not too successful encounters with German hilfskreuzers!
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by RF »

They were gradually relieved by cruisers over time, firstly light cruisers and then heavy cruisers, such as those encountered by Lutjens on Rheinubung.
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by tommy303 »

Here is an interesting account by one the survivors.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stor ... 8684.shtml

As to deserving a medal, one can say yes, but there are difficulties. Most of the crew were merchant sailors, and for the captain to receive a VC, the act would have had to be witnessed and attested to by a British serving officer. As far as I know, there were no such witnesses who survived.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by paulcadogan »

Thanks Tommy. That was an interesting read.

Those survivors were extremely lucky to have been picked up by a British ship. Though they suffered a great deal after S&G made off, abandoning them in their wake, at least they didn't end up in a POW camp for 5 1/2 years like the rest.

Curious that the twins fled at the sight of the Newcastle when they could have made a meal of her too...

Paul
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RF
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by RF »

Marschall left the scene quickly for two reasons, firstly Newcastle carried torpedoes and visibility was poor, and the arrival of other British ships was considered imminent by the Germans. Given that the war had only just started, Marschall's first duty was to return his two ships intact back to base; at that time the twins were the KM's only real heavy ships.
But the failure to follow up was questionable - even Raeder queried it.
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by paulcadogan »

I went back and checked an old book - Cajus Bekker's Hitler's Naval War which describes the operation in good detail - even the above survivor's story meshes perfectly with Scharnhorst cutting loose a boat before the men could be rescued.

It seems Marschall's retreat did create a bit of a furore among his superiors - particularly chief of operations Admiral Fricke. It was a quote from him that contained the term I used earlier "The battleships could have made a meal of her!" referring to the Newcastle.

After all, the objective of the mission, to use the words of Raeder was to "roll up enemy control " of the Iceland-Faeroes passage.

But you're right RF - Marschall's decision to withdraw was based on it being nightfall and Newcastle's torpedoes. Had it been daylight, the story might have been very different.

It's another example of land-based "authorities" second-guessing and questioning the actions of the commander at sea who has to quickly assess the situation as it unfolds and make decisions. There are several examples of this on the British side as well....
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by RF »

But on the German side there was a ''landsmans'' inferiority complex over having such a small surface fleet in comparison to the RN plus (at that time) the substantial French fleet. Whatever Fricke said, Raeder (who appeared to share Fricke's opinion) still issued the ''no unecessary risks'' order at the behest of Hitler.
What mattered to the Germans was that the withdrawal of the newly renamed Lutzow had been covered, which basically was Marschall's brief. Indeed Captain Kennedy had originally identified his foe as that vessel.
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Re: Capt Kennedy of Rawalpindi

Post by paulcadogan »

I'm not sure that covering the Deutschland/Lutzow's withdrawal was the objective as Raeder's directive was issued on Nov. 13th, Lutzow arrived home on the 15th while the Twins' were in the Iceland-Faeroes passage on the 23rd.

According to Becker's book the operation WAS a diversion with Raeder's orders being to "roll up" the Northern Patrol and carry out a feint penetration of the North Atlantic to appear to threaten the convoy routes. With Deutschland already withdrawn, the intention was to pull British & French forces away from the South Atlantic to take pressure off Graf Spee.

After sinking Rawalpindi, Marschall abandoned the Atlantic feint because the Rawalpindi's signals (which the Germans decoded) had identified him as Deutschland on a south easterly course (an error) which suggested he was heading home. He deduced (correctly) that the British would use their available forces (Nelson, Rodney, cruisers, destroyers) to concentrate on blocking his path between Norway and the Shetlands, with no diversion of the Graf Spee hunting groups. He skillfully waited for the moment and used bad weather to slip through the hornets nest undetected.

Interestingly, if he had gone ahead into the Atlantic, he might conceivably have found Hood and Dunkerque waiting to intercept him on return! (What about that for a hypothetical? :think: )

Paul
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