A ship history : Scharnhorst

From the Washington Naval Treaty to the end of the Second World War.
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celticmarine10
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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by celticmarine10 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:09 pm

Two Years after the last post so this is a bit late...anyway I have a profound interest in Scharnhorst and I want to say that this page i excellent!
Thanks Mr. Bonomi! :clap:
"Permission to Fire!" - Kapitan Lindemann

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:44 pm

Ciao all,

many thanks Celticmarine10, .... just to say what a friend is use to say :

" God created the world in 6 days .......... and on the 7th day he built the Scharnhorst " :wink:

Anything you want to know about Scharnmhorst, ... than think that you are on the right place.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by cerberusjf » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:02 pm

Hi,
I have recently become interested in Scharnhorst again and I have found something that is new to me. I was wondering if it is new to people more familiar with this ship? :D

While I was watching a film about Operation Juno (and other sorties of Scharnhorst) on the Historic Films dvd on Bismarck, I spotted something I hadn’t noticed before on Scharnhorst. It was a large cylinder with two boxes on top. It appeared to be located aft of the conning tower to port, forward of the 37mm gun.

http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee27 ... _or_gn.jpg

http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee27 ... _or_gn.jpg

I hope this image explains what I mean (images from shipmodels.info gallery).

http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee27 ... g&newest=1

http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee27 ... g&newest=1

First I had to make sure that it was one of the Scharnhorst class and if possible find out which one. Luckily there were some distinctive things around the 37mm gun.

http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee27 ... g&newest=1


1. There was a straight bulkhead beside the gun running perpendicular to the run of planking of the deck below and perpendicular to the ship’s centreline.
2. The deck dropped down a level behind this bulkhead, and was the same level towards the centre of the ship.
3. The shape of the bulkhead was slightly angled in the middle (between 1 and 2).
4. A ladder going up and forward in the middle of the deck below
5. A vantage point from where the film could be taken

The only 37mm gun that fitted all these criteria on a large German ship was the one behind the conning tower (1 deck up) on Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

The centre of the gun in the image was between 1 and 2, the same as Scharnhorst whereas on Gneisenau the centre of the gun was outboard of 1 and 2, so it did not match Gneisenau.

http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee27 ... g&newest=1

I checked several photos of Gneisenau during her career and they all showed the same pattern. So I thought it had to be Scharnhorst.
But I did not know enough of these ships' histories to be certain.

Antonio very helpfully proved that it was Scharnhorst 1939-40 and managed to find images as illustration, which was excellent! :clap:
I don’t know if this is news to anyone here, but I hope it is at least interesting. :D

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rtwpsom2
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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by rtwpsom2 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:10 pm

Hi Cerberus. The ship is indeed the Scharnhorst, the footage is taken from the movie "Schlachtshiff in Farht", I have posted a copy of it here that I got from a fine Russian gentleman named Max. The cylinder, I can't help much with. It wasn't a permanent fixture, it was gone by 41 or so. The boxes on top are floater boxes. I am not really certain what kind of equipment is underneath, but they are designed to float off in the event of sinking, like the floater net baskets of the USN.

That's a fine model by the way.

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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by cerberusjf » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:06 am

Hi rtwpsom2, thanks for your answer. I suspected that the boxes could be or contain some kind of floatation device as these boxes appeared in odd places that didn’t make sense for anything else. But they couldn't be rafts because there were some oval-shaped ones already on board.

I haven’t found a title for the film this shot came from, but it appears to have been filmed from different ships. Also there have been odd scenes of completely unrelated ships in films I’ve seem previously, newsreel for example, so I wanted to make sure I wasn’t completely wrong before posting anything. The film "Schlachtshiff in Farht" is I think filmed entirely on Gneisenau unfortunately. It looks a nice film.

Yes, the Dragon kit has much to be admired, especially the bridge area.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:31 pm

Ciao all,

on that film you can see : Blucher, Gneisenau, Admiral Hipper and Scharnhorst.

It was recorder mainly on the iced Kieler Fjorde.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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mike kemble
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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by mike kemble » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:46 pm

Excellent drawings. I did some research into the Scharnhorst a while back and published the results both on my ww2 webste and also as a chapter in a book I was lucky enough to get published. What I cannot explain is the thinking behind Admiral Bey's orders that fateful night at the North Cape, completely without reason he enabled the British Navy to find hit, find and sink her.

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RF
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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by RF » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:04 am

The ''thinking'' was out of touch with reality and that was the real reason for Scharnhorsts' loss.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by cerberusjf » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:10 pm

Hi,
there is some question whether the aft end of Scharnhorst's conning tower was pointed or not.

See kubaro April 11th here.
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/vi ... 59&t=74642

The Dragon kit ends rounded, the Koop plans end pointed. I think this photo of Scharnhorst shows that it is pointed.

http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee27 ... ined3a.jpg
the original
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee27 ... _or_gn.jpg

The red lines show the black like at the base of the conning tower and it forms a point. The margin plank can also be seen. It is at an angle to the direction of the plank and never becomes perpendicular to it. The blue lines I think show the shadow of the platform. To those who would argue that the black line on the port side of the "midpoint" could be a deceptive shadow I would say that there is not enough room imho for it to become round, so it is must be pointed. If those who say it is round can manage to fit their scheme with this photo, I would certainly admit I could be wrong and the round end could be a possibility.

There are also a number of interesting details, like the steel deck for the 37mm gun, the locker, the supports for the conning tower platform etc.

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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by cerberusjf » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:20 pm

Though I should add that the deck for the 37mm would probably have been covered by removable wood decking, removed for action?

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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by Scribe » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:56 pm

Having just found this thread and detailing the Graupner 1-150th Premium line model to the last version before sinking I find the drawings wonderful.....but.....they seem to be cut in half on my monitor. Is there anyway I can see the full length of the ship?

Alan

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:19 pm

Ciao all,

try here as well, .... they are without the swastika's,..

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 967.0.html

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by Scribe » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:40 am

Thanks Antonio....I have found that if I right click the image and open in new tab, I get the whole image.... :D

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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by Paul L » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:45 am

Bey was at best a 'Rear Admiral' .... 'Konteradmiral' I think the Germans called it and he was only promoted to that position the day before the battle. He had been earned medals and a captainship in 1940 during the do-or-die break out attempt, in the 'second battle of Narvik', against the larger British Destroyer squadron backed up by the BB HMS Warspite. Had this break out been attempted the day before after the first clash , he might have been able to salvage up to 1/2 of the 10 destroyers at Narvik.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Bey


In any event Bey remained Captain rank and lead a Destroyer flotilla through couple of major clashes in 1940 in which he did well in one battle. In November 1943 he was designated to take over command of the Scharnhorst while its commander Vise Admiral Kummetz was convalescing. Bey doesn't strike me as a good commander and since that is the single most important variable determining naval clashes, I was not surprise at his performance or the result. Its hard to believe there were not better commanders around. I would have even taken Kapitän Stange over Kapitän Bey, in spite of his uninspired performance a year before in the 'Battle of the Barents sea'. At least he had experience with a Panzerschiffe.


http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/ba ... ts_sea.htm


If they were going to choose a destroyer leader, Kapitän 'Schulze-Hinrichs' had already distinguished himself as a competent leader the previous year sinking a British Cruiser with three German DD , despite being out gunned 3:1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Schulze-Hinrichs

I have little doubt that Bey was rewarded with command because he was a good loyal Nazi.
"Eine mal is kein mal"

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RF
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Re: A ship history : Scharnhorst

Post by RF » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:25 am

Paul L wrote: I have little doubt that Bey was rewarded with command because he was a good loyal Nazi.
On what evidence? Bey may not have been the best commander but he was hardly a Julius Streicher. Was he even a member of the NSDAP?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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