RN WW2 Battleship Trivia

[paulcadogan]

It just struck me in considering the US vs. RN Hypotheticals thread that with the exception of the Nelson class, all Royal Navy capital ship classes in WW2 lost ONE ship:

QE class - Barham
R-class - Royal Oak
KGV class - Prince of Wales
Renown class - Repulse
Hood class - Hood

And, with the exception of Hood, all of them were lost to torpedoes.

And, if it hadn't been for defective German torpedoes - Nelson might have been the victim for her class (30 October 1939, U-56 penetrated a screen of 10 destroyers to attack Nelson, Rodney & Hood west of the Orkneys, supposedly scoring three hits on Nelson, all duds).

Just a bit of trivia I thought was interesting...

Paul

[dougieo]

all reasonable early in the war to I believe.

[paulcadogan]

That's right - all before the end of 1941.

Can anyone else come up with any other trivia - ironic or otherwise?

Examples: The only battleship in history sunk by a battlecruiser: Bretagne sunk by Hood
The only battlecruiser sunk by a battleship: Hood sunk by Bismarck

On Repulse's first visit to Singapore (1922) she was accompanied by Hood
On Repulse's last visit to Singapore (1941) she was accompanied by Prince of Wales

Doesn't have to be battleship or British though.

A little fun?

[USS ALASKA]

The only battlecruiser sunk by a battleship: Hood sunk by Bismarck

This might be news to USS Washington....and Kirishima.

[paulcadogan]

This might be news to USS Washington....and Kirishima.

Kirishima had been reconstructed and re-classified as a battleship..so though she started life as a BC, she was officially a BB when KO'd by Washington.

And also, I've wondered about this:

Kirishima was wrecked by the Washington and later scuttled by her crew. Bismarck was wrecked by KGV, Rodney, Norfolk & Dorsetshire and was scuttled by her crew. Arguments have raged over who sank the Bismarck, but there's been no argument over who sank the Kirishima...... Comments?

[Bgile]

Kirishima was wrecked by the Washington and later scuttled by her crew. Bismarck was wrecked by KGV, Rodney, Norfolk & Dorsetshire and was scuttled by her crew. Arguments have raged over who sank the Bismarck, but there's been no argument over who sank the Kirishima...... Comments?

This is incorrect. There has been a thread about this on the navweaps forum. New information shows Kirishima was hit not 9 times but in the neighborhood of 20 times by Washington's 16" shells. She was sinking when a destroyer came alongside to take off her crew and she rolled over suddenly almost hitting the destroyer before it could get away. There was no talk of scuttling at all, the order wasn't given to do so, and it didn't happen.

[lwd]

Arguments have also raged over what exactly is a BC. How less extensive were Hood's upgrades compared to those of Kirishima?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Paul,

nice light thread my friend, .. so at least we can get read of ' heavy stuffs ' lately very annoying ,...

OK, here my contribution which is a certain way involves RN too,..... Taranto night, ..... RN Swordfish attacking Italian battleships anchored into the harbour, ........ several ships got torpedoed,......

... on board one Italian battleship there was an Admiral, .....

Question : what was the destiny of the ship that got torpedoed ? How many sunk, ... how many ' beached ' ..... on which ship was the Admiral ?
Did the Admiral provided value add to the decision making process of the battleship commander , ..... in which way ?

Bye Antonio

[paulcadogan]

This is incorrect. There has been a thread about this on the navweaps forum. New information shows Kirishima was hit not 9 times but in the neighborhood of 20 times by Washington's 16" shells. She was sinking when a destroyer came alongside to take off her crew and she rolled over suddenly almost hitting the destroyer before it could get away. There was no talk of scuttling at all, the order wasn't given to do so, and it didn't happen.

This is interesting new information for me. Thanks! So where did the "scuttle" information come from? Japanese propaganda? I did read somewhere that Kirishima's bow is separated from the rest of the wreck.

And Antonio...

... on board one Italian battleship there was an Admiral, .....

Campioni.

Question : what was the destiny of the ship that got torpedoed ? How many sunk, ... how many ' beached ' ..... on which ship was the Admiral ?
Did the Admiral provided value add to the decision making process of the battleship commander , ..... in which way ?

The battleships present were Vittorio Veneto (flagship), Littorio, Guilio Cesare, Caio Duilio, Conte di Cavour and Andrea Doria. Conte di Cavour was sunk outright and was never returned to service. Caio Duilio and Littorio were also torpedoed and beached - with Littorio's bow sinking below water - both were repaired and returned to service within a few months.

I'm not sure what you're asking about Admiral Campioni. I only know that the attack probably instilled a healthy respect for carrier-borne aircraft and may have had a big influence on his decision a few weeks later to withdraw from the Battle of Cape Spartivento after Veneto and Cesare came under attack from Ark Royal's aircraft.

Paul

[paulcadogan]

Arguments have also raged over what exactly is a BC. How less extensive were Hood's upgrades compared to those of Kirishima?

Though the Kongo class' reconstructions transformed their appearance and increased their AA capabilities, I don't think any improvements to their armour took place with their main belt remaining at 8-inches max - less than Repulse & Renown. Plus their speed was increased. So it could be said that despite the classification change they were still battlecruisers.

[Bgile]

This is incorrect. There has been a thread about this on the navweaps forum. New information shows Kirishima was hit not 9 times but in the neighborhood of 20 times by Washington's 16" shells. She was sinking when a destroyer came alongside to take off her crew and she rolled over suddenly almost hitting the destroyer before it could get away. There was no talk of scuttling at all, the order wasn't given to do so, and it didn't happen.

This is interesting new information for me. Thanks! So where did the "scuttle" information come from? Japanese propaganda? I did read somewhere that Kirishima's bow is separated from the rest of the wreck.

I don't know for sure where the scuttling info comes from. Everyone knew her steering gear was wrecked by Washington's gunfire, and maybe it was just assumed that because she was last seen to be afloat and circling that she was eventually scuttled or torpedoed by her escorts like Hiei was. What actually happened was progressive flooding and loss of stability.

I think you are correct about her bow. There is still debate about what happened. Her crew didn't report a large explosion after she sank, but there must have been one.

[USS ALASKA]

…So it could be said that despite the classification change they were still battlecruisers.

Hence my comment about Washington / Kirishima being another BB / BC fight. Abraham Lincoln once ask that if you call a dog’s tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? Answer – 4. Just because you call it a leg doesn’t mean it is one. Not trying to be a smart-butt. The inter-war capitol ship upgrades kinda remind me of Main Battle Tank upgrades. While we (and the Israelis) have done wonderful things with bolt-on additions to the venerable M-60, I still wouldn’t want to take on an M-1, or Leopard II, or Challenger II in one in a one-on-one fight.

[paulcadogan]

Just because you call it a leg doesn’t mean it is one.

LOL! So what about your namesake? CB-1...Cruiser of Battle or "Large Cruiser"? Did the USN simply avoid calling a leg a leg?

Paul

[Bgile]

If you look at Alaska she really looks like a Baltimore class cruiser on steriods. The secondary armament is identical, as is the director arrangement. The US rightly called them "large cruisers". The US did design BCs and they had 16" guns; the Lexington class.

[lwd]

This is incorrect. There has been a thread about this on the navweaps forum. New information shows Kirishima was hit not 9 times but in the neighborhood of 20 times by Washington's 16" shells. She was sinking when a destroyer came alongside to take off her crew and she rolled over suddenly almost hitting the destroyer before it could get away. There was no talk of scuttling at all, the order wasn't given to do so, and it didn't happen.

This is interesting new information for me. Thanks! So where did the "scuttle" information come from? Japanese propaganda? I did read somewhere that Kirishima's bow is separated from the rest of the wreck.
...

In that case you probably haven't seen this document:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/ ... alysis.pdf