U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

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RF
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U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by RF »

Moving on from the thread initiated by miro, I think that there were no direct combat actions between German and US subs during WW2. There were of course numerous actions between British and German subs, not all of them in home waters, but am I right in my thinking?
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by Bgile »

It makes sense. US submarines were designed for the great distances Pacific Theatre against an opponent who didn't consider escorting merchants to be a very glorious undertaking. Surface operations were more common for US Submarines and their design showed that. Late war some of them even had two 5" deck guns and centralized fire control so they could be more effective against coastal shipping which didn't really merit a torpedo.

They probably didn't fit European operations all that well.
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by RF »

I believe that some US subs were deployed in the Atlantic, including operations to intercept blockade runners in the Bay of Biscay, am I right?
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by lwd »

There were definitely US subs deployed in the Atlantic but I'm not sure of the details on what they were doing. I did find this referance:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ublant.htm
Early in 1941 Commander Submarines, Atlantic Fleet consisted of two new coastal submarines and a flock of older boats. A good share of these boats had to be reserved for the protection of the Panama Canal. On December 7, 1941, Commander Submarine Force, U.S. Atlantic Fleet (COMSUBLANT) was established. Instructed to groom his submarines for combat duty, RADM Richard S. Edwards, the first Force Commander set out with a capacity for work, coupled with experience, which spelled success. During World War II COMSUBLANT took on the task not only of 'shaking down' new construction submarines, but also the task of training their crews in the operation of the submarine as well as tactics. In preparing these submarines and their crews, the command mad its major contribution to the war effort. As a training school for officers and crews going into battle, the Atlantic was a hard and exacting teacher and its undersea graduates proved the value of their education through their accomplishments in the war.

Meanwhile, submarines in the Atlantic were getting a taste of realistic action. German U-boats threatened to sever the sea lanes which were providing much needed food and munitions to embattled Britain. In June, 1941, U.S. submarines commenced anti-submarine patrols in search for German and Italian undersea raiders in the Atlantic and Caribbean.
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by chcrawfish »

One squadron of US fleet boats was sent to European waters to fight u-boats and blockade runners, but that was the squadron that had the H.O.R. engines, which were abysmal failures. They were withdrawn, re-engined, and sent to the Pacific. That squadron included USS Harder, which was made famous by Sam "Destroyer Killer" Dealey, of the Dealey family from Dallas, original publishers of the Dallas Morning news and namesakes of the location of JFK's assassination.

I believe that at least one of the u-boats sent to Japan was intercepted and killed by an American boat. I know some were killed by Brit and Dutch boats.
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by RF »

As far as I am aware, no German or Italian submarines were sunk by US subs in WW2. if anyone knows differently then please let me know.

I think only two German warships were sunk by US vessels in WW2 - the Stier by the Liberty ship Stephen Hopkins, and the hilfskreuzer Michel by the submarine USS Tarpon. Again if anyone has any additions to that list please advise.
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by lwd »

You're not counting U-boats as warships then?
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by RF »

Not really clear as to the import here, considering the first paragraph of my previous post.
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by Bgile »

RF wrote:Not really clear as to the import here, considering the first paragraph of my previous post.
I believe he was commenting on your second paragraph.
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by lwd »

RF wrote:Not really clear as to the import here, considering the first paragraph of my previous post.
Looking back on it I think the import was me having a senior moment. In reference to the first paragraph I do have a vague memory of some such but I'm probably mixing up a US boat with a British one.
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by RF »

Submarines are warships, but as I said I am not aware of any U-boats being attacked by US subs, either in Biscay or in the Far East. At least two U-boats were sunk in the Far East by British subs.

The actions involving the Stier and Michel at the termination of their careers are the only two actions I know of involving German and US vessels on a one on one basis.
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by chcrawfish »

According to Clay Blair's "Silent Victory," the US subs that were sent to Europe tangled with a few U-boats and fired a few torps at German merchants, but none were officially credited with any kills before being withdrawn and sent to the Pacific.
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by ufo »

RF wrote:Moving on from the thread initiated by miro, I think that there were no direct combat actions between German and US subs during WW2. There were of course numerous actions between British and German subs, not all of them in home waters, but am I right in my thinking?
Sorry - I did not find the original thread you are refering to. I appologize if I only re-post things mentioned in an other thread.

There were certainly actions between U-Boats and US subs. The US Navy was well involved in attacking and destroying Monsun Boats going in and out of Penang. U-537 fell victin to USS Flounder, U-138 was taken out by USS Besugo both off Java. There might be others. Let this be examples.
The Germans had big problems with low quality Diesel provided by the Japanese. That made their Diesels rattle and gave the Allied listeners great advantage in taking out Monsun boats on the home run.

The U-Boats evened the score with mining operations in the waters leading into the Canal Zone. USS Dorado fell victim to a mine hit on her maiden voyage from the East coast to her deployment in the Pacific. Again - there might be others.

But - yes - there was certainly combat between the U-Boat arm and US submariners.

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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by RF »

ufo,

Thanks for your post. I am having a look at the two U-boats you mention on the U-boote website.

I was also unaware that the Axis mined the approaches to the Canal Zone.
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Re: U=boats vs US subs: an alternative perspective

Post by yellowtail3 »

imagine if the German navy, instead of those dinky Type VIIs, had built subs like the US Fleet Boats: double the fire power, better fire control, more endurance, more speed, much more advanced propulsion... so long as they didn't have faulty torpedoes, they'd have done more damage, IMHO.
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