Battle of Surigao Strait by Anthony P. Tunny

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Bgile
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Re: Battle of Surigao Strait by Anthony P. Tunny

Post by Bgile » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:58 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:The underating that is generally given to any non USA military device could be deceptive.
I have no problem recognizing real deficiencies when there are relevant facts to support them. For example, I think it's commonly accepted that the TDS of the South Dakota and Iowa classes was flawed.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Battle of Surigao Strait by Anthony P. Tunny

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:41 am

lwd:
It would depend a lot on when Oldendorf turns north. If he does it in time he can to a large extent repeat Surigao with the Japanese having to enter the gulf through a fairly narrow channel. Not much inthe way of PT boats around but a lot of DDs and a fair number of planes. The US had practiced firing through smoke as well under radar control I believe so they could have taken advantage of this. Shells from Oldendorf's big guns aren't going to sink Yamato and probably won't sink Nagato either but can render them incapable of escaping the torpedoes from US DDs or if necessary those carried by Hallsey's planes.
Interesting, really. But I do believe that even Willmott is not optimistic in a "lucky turn to the North" from Oldendorf. Oldendorf himself thought he was not in a good fuel-ammo position when received Kinkaid´s yell for help. And Halsey was hours away of bringing any help, which is it why he is severely critized.

yellowtail:
Oldendorf vs Kurita? Oldendorf wins, mostly likely - and likely none of the Japanese ships make it home.
In a contest of characters and tactics, with even forces I will concur with you: Oldendorf (or Lee) vs. Kurita (or Abe or Nagumo or Yamamoto himself) I will put my bucks with the American admiral, no sweat and I will get my money and the other´s money back. To be honest off Samar the Japanese performance was poor and I already recognized that. But IF... IF, Oldendorf got on time to fight Kurita off Samar, with his magazines and bunkers as low as he actually have and the Japanese decide to stand and fight (let´s remember that Yamato and some other Japanese vesselss were firing good with a glorious lack of luck) then I will not bet on any ship being targeted by Yamato... it´s like being in a Sherman off Villers Bocage with Wittman agaisnt you.... with a vengueance.

Bgile:
For example, I think it's commonly accepted that the TDS of the South Dakota and Iowa classes was flawed.
Correct.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Re: Battle of Surigao Strait by Anthony P. Tunny

Post by lwd » Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:44 pm

Looking at the map at: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... otated.jpg
It looks like Oldendorf shouldn't have any trouble getting his battleships back to the Gulf before the Japanese can get there. Now I believe some of his cruisers and light forces continued the persuit for a while longer so some of them may have more trouble doing so. An important question is when do the Japanese decide to break off persuit of Taffey 3?

***This really should be moved to the what if/hypothetical area***
I'll start a thread there tonight or tomorrow after some research unless someone beats me to it.

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Re: Battle of Surigao Strait by Anthony P. Tunny

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:48 am

Lee;
***This really should be moved to the what if/hypothetical area***
I'll start a thread there tonight or tomorrow after some research unless someone beats me to it.
I think it will be funny. However remember that Dave Saxton already started one with Nishumura waiting a bit, so it maybe is suitable to continue there. Of many "if" that we have made arguments this is, possible, one of the most plausible ones with an important effect on a tactical outcome...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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