Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?

[Tool1958]

Dear All,

A question for gun experts. It's basically about the differences between two versions
of the German 10.5 cm (4.1") naval gun.

The following table shows the two versions in question.

10,5-cm S.K. L40 & L45.png (251.67 KiB) Viewed 30753 times

Original Text Source on Page 26:
"No.-21-German-Navy-Naval-Guns-Mountings-Sights-and-Table-of-
Ordannce-July-1917_Part1-compressed-1" (22.2 MB / 60 pages / pdf)
https://ncisahistory.org/wp-content/upl ... ssed-1.pdf



Two photo samples for the L/40 version:
10,5-cm S.K. L/40 on "Goetzen", original from "SMS Königsberg"
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liemba_(S ... Kanone.jpg

10.5 cm SK L/40 from "SMS Emden" in Sidney
https://www.flickr.com/photos/147661871 ... 012891137/


One version for the L/45 version:
10,5-cm S.K. L/45 (possibly), from "SMS Breslau" / MIdilli in Istanbul
https://www.123rf.com/photo_53947566_th ... anbul.html


I don't know of any proved photo of the 10.5 cm L/45 version. But I
suspect that the only difference is a 52.5 cm (20,669") longer gun-barrel?

Can anyone confirm this, or help me with further information?

Regards Holger

[NCC1717]

NAVWEAPS has a page on each gun:

L/40:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_41-40_skc00.php

L/45:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_41-45_skc06.php

[Tool1958]

NAVWEAPS has a page on each gun:

L/40:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_41-40_skc00.php

L/45:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_41-45_skc06.php

Good morning NCC1717

Thank you for your reply.

Yes of course; - Navweaps.com explains a helpful compilation of the Navy's various weapon systems.
The various variants of the German 10.5 cm naval guns are also listed here in text and also with some pictures.

But the version of the 10.5-cm Krupp S.K. L/45 M.P.L. C/1906 is not shown in the picture.
(4.1 inch, Quick Loading Gun on Navy mount model C/1906)

10,5-cm S.K. L/40 on M.P.L. C/1906 (Should be M.P.L. C/1904)
https://forum.axishistory.com/download/ ... &mode=view

10,5-cm S.K. L/45 on M.P.L. C/1906
https://forum.axishistory.com/download/ ... &mode=view


For sample, here the complete different design for submarine, but also a 10,5-cm navy gun L/45 by Krupp from the same author.
https://forum.axishistory.com/download/ ... &mode=view
https://forum.axishistory.com/download/ ... 417115&t=1

Regards Holger

[marcelo_malara]

They are quiet different:

The /45 has the recoil springs on top of the barrel:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_4 ... 98_pic.jpg

The /40 has them on the sides of the barrel:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_4 ... un_pic.jpg

The drawings in https://forum.axishistory.com/ show both different from the photos.

[Tool1958]

They are quiet different:

The /45 has the recoil springs on top of the barrel:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_4 ... 98_pic.jpg

The /40 has them on the sides of the barrel:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_4 ... un_pic.jpg

The drawings in https://forum.axishistory.com/ show both different from the photos.

Good morning Marcelo
Thank you for reply.

If you compare the L/45 submarine gun with the L/40 (surface) naval gun; - YES
But that would mean that we are comparing apples (L/45) with pears (L40), both
sweet fruits; - but different.


Your picture from Navweaps of the 10.5-cm S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1897 shows the older
version, where the recoil-break / recuberator was installed parallel to the gun barrel.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_4 ... un_pic.jpg

On this photo with the same barrel length of the 10,5-cm S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1904
you see the recoil-break / recuberator was installed under the gun-barrel.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/147661871 ... 012891137/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/147661871 ... 012891137/


What I'm looking for is documentary evidence of the difference between
the 10,5-cm S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1904 and 10,5-cm S.K. L/45 M.P.L C/1906


The problem is that there is no photographic evidence for the latter version.
But this problem has been going on in various forums for over 20 years.

Regards Holger

[marcelo_malara]

They are quiet different:

The /45 has the recoil springs on top of the barrel:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_4 ... 98_pic.jpg

The /40 has them on the sides of the barrel:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_4 ... un_pic.jpg

The drawings in https://forum.axishistory.com/ show both different from the photos.

Good morning Marcelo
Thank you for reply.

If you compare the L/45 submarine gun with the L/40 (surface) naval gun; - YES
But that would mean that we are comparing apples (L/45) with pears (L40), both
sweet fruits; - but different.


Your picture from Navweaps of the 10.5-cm S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1897 shows the older
version, where the recoil-break / recuberator was installed parallel to the gun barrel.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_4 ... un_pic.jpg

On this photo with the same barrel length of the 10,5-cm S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1904
you see the recoil-break / recuberator was installed under the gun-barrel.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/147661871 ... 012891137/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/147661871 ... 012891137/


What I'm looking for is documentary evidence of the difference between
the 10,5-cm S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1904 and 10,5-cm S.K. L/45 M.P.L C/1906


The problem is that there is no photographic evidence for the latter version.
But this problem has been going on in various forums for over 20 years.

Regards Holger

Hi Holger! I looked in Naval Weapons of WWI (Friedman) but besides the different barrel length and its higher muzzle velocity nothing more is mentioned.

I think that they could have different building methods, or just that higher muzzle velocity was deemed necessary and so a longer barrel was adopted. For the building method, may be a photo of the muzzle can give some clues.

Regards

[Tool1958]

Hi Holger! I looked in Naval Weapons of WWI (Friedman) but besides the different barrel length and its higher muzzle velocity nothing more is mentioned.
I think that they could have different building methods, or just that higher muzzle velocity was deemed necessary and so a longer barrel was adopted. For the building method, may be a photo of the muzzle can give some clues.
Regards

Hello Marcello

Thanks for coming back to this topic.
Your information would confirm my suspicions.

This assumption is at least confirmed in this comparison. The total length difference
between both variants is (L/45: 4.725 mm, minus L/40: 4.200 mm) = 525 mm.

Comparison between L45 and L40.png (250.56 KiB) Viewed 30616 times

Unfortunately there are no confirmed images of the 10.5-cm S.K. L/45 M.P.L C/1906.

The next two pictures show 'probably' (I don't like that word) the same gun and 'probably'
show this L/45 version. Fortunately, both photos show the gun breech very clearly.
The length of the gun barrel could correspond to the L/45 version in the first picture.

"105mm gun of the Mittel Battery, South of Zeebrugge, 24 October 1918"
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Q7147.jpg

"BATTERY MITTEL, 5-105 M/M Guns South of Zeebrugge October 1918"
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... 233101.jpg
(Click below on the maximum size: 8,387 × 5,666 pixels!)

Regards Holger

[Tool1958]

I'll try to define my concern here again in more detail. The background is as follows:

The small cruiser "SMS Breslau" (later officially Ottoman: "Midilli") was at the
beginning of the war with twelve 10.5-cm S.K. L/45 on M.P.L C/1906 armed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Breslau

From the end of 1915 the small cruiser was re-armed with 15-cm S.K. L/45 instead.
At first only two 15-cm guns were installed and by the beginning of 1917 there were
eight 15-cm guns. http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_59-45_skc16.php

The now dismantled 10.5 cm L/45 guns were then installed as a coastal battery
around the Dardanelles, and some are probably still there today; - in museums
and near the original locations.


Here are two 'old' photos of 10.5-cm naval guns with the original protective shield:
http://ww1blog.osborneink.com/wp-conten ... elbahr.jpg
http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/resiml ... i/1216.jpg

These are current still existing positions between Istanbul and Kanakkale:
http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/resiml ... i/1212.jpg
http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/resiml ... i/1208.jpg
https://www.canakkaletravel.com/images/ ... -17383.jpg
https://bpakman.wordpress.com/2016/03/1 ... usel-24916
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/old-nav ... 430754.jpg
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/old-nav ... 430201.jpg



There were proven to be sixteen 10.5 cm naval gun variants from Krupp,
L/40 and L/45 in the Turkish theater of war around the Dardanelles in usage.

Twelve x 10.5-cm S.K. L/45 on M.P.L C/1906 from "Midilli"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Breslau

Four x 10,5 S.K. L/40 on M.P.L. C/1904 from two
Torpedo-Cruisers: "Peyk-i Şevket" & "Berk-i-Satvet"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyk-i_%C ... ss_cruiser


That means I will probably only be able to prove the difference if I stand in front of it
and can measure the length of the gun barrel?!?

I hope to be in Istanbul in December 2023 and find time to look. But due to
the reduction in stamp size of 270 KB, I unfortunately cannot publish it here.

Regards Holger

[marcelo_malara]

Duplicate.

[marcelo_malara]

Hi Holger.

Yes, the surest way to identify a gun is measuring it. I have been involved with a similar doubt about an old Rodman rifled gun we have in Argentina, and finally had to travel to its location, photos were of no use. And very important, take photos of the muzzle, where you can discern a built-up gun and the number and shape of the rifling´s lands.

If you look at this photos, the muzzles seem different.

http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/resiml ... i/1208.jpg

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/old-nav ... 430201.jpg

One of them looks as if having an a-tube, which makes me doubt if it is a 105mm.

[Tool1958]

Hi Holger.
Yes, the surest way to identify a gun is measuring it. I have been involved with a similar doubt about an old Rodman rifled gun we have in Argentina, and finally had to travel to its location, photos were of no use. And very important, take photos of the muzzle, where you can discern a built-up gun and the number and shape of the rifling´s lands.
If you look at this photos, the muzzles seem different.
http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/resiml ... i/1208.jpg
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/old-nav ... 430201.jpg
One of them looks as if having an a-tube, which makes me doubt if it is a 105mm.

Hello Marcelo,

You're right; - Secure information can only be obtained on site; - Remote diagnoses are
always somewhat difficult and uncertain. Several of today's locations also show 15-cm S.K.

For example, here are two Turkish blog entries that can be translated very well using copy & past,
and where from 10.5-cm S.K. L/45 is in question.


"Where are the Veteran Cannons Remaining as Souvenirs from the Battle of Gallipoli?"

http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/789_ca ... akgun.html

http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/2415_c ... html#_ftn4


The application to inspect the Historical Krupp Archive might also be useful.
https://www.krupp-stiftung.de/instituti ... as-archiv/

By the way; - What you mean with a-tube?

Regards Holger

[marcelo_malara]

By the way; - What you mean with a-tube?

Regards Holger

Hi Holger. Big guns are not made from a single piece, but consist of concentric tubes. As seen in the following diagram, the a-tube is the inner one, the one that has the rifling and that can be changed once rifling has been worn out. The contrary is a monoblock gun. I do not know the exact limit, but would say that 6" are mostly built up, and less than 6" are mostly monoblock.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-up_gun

[Tool1958]

Hi Holger. Big guns are not made from a single piece, but consist of concentric tubes. As seen in the following diagram, the a-tube is the inner one, the one that has the rifling and that can be changed once rifling has been worn out. The contrary is a monoblock gun. I do not know the exact limit, but would say that 6" are mostly built up, and less than 6" are mostly monoblock.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-up_gun

Hello Marcelo,

thank you for your addition, I have not yet worked so deeply into these metallurgic
detail constructions. However, I am familiar with the rough connections between
Armstrong and Krupp and each of their developments.

I've also noticed the so-called thickening at the end of the gun barrels, but I have
not explanation for it yet. In the 30 years between 1875 and 1905 there were of
course huge developments in military gun development.

However, I believe that and with the versions of the 10,5-cm S.K. (L/40 C/1897
to L/45 C/1906) we have already left this phase of gun barrel development behind us.

On the German side, the term quick-loading cannon was also associated with the
change from casing / ring cannons to cast and later de-twisted gun barrels, even
if the original term QFG had no direct reference.

Regards Holger

[marcelo_malara]

Hello Marcelo,

thank you for your addition, I have not yet worked so deeply into these metallurgic
detail constructions. However, I am familiar with the rough connections between
Armstrong and Krupp and each of their developments.

I've also noticed the so-called thickening at the end of the gun barrels, but I have
not explanation for it yet. In the 30 years between 1875 and 1905 there were of
course huge developments in military gun development.

However, I believe that and with the versions of the 10,5-cm S.K. (L/40 C/1897
to L/45 C/1906) we have already left this phase of gun barrel development behind us.

On the German side, the term quick-loading cannon was also associated with the
change from casing / ring cannons to cast and later de-twisted gun barrels, even
if the original term QFG had no direct reference.

Regards Holger

Hi Holger. I would say that in the chamber the pressures are higher because of the inertia of the projectile. Once the gun is fired, the projectile would not move till a certain pressure is reached, then in would start accelerating, but the projectile would move slower than the rate of gas development. You can see this in any barrel length-pressure graphic:

[Tool1958]

Hi Holger. I would say that in the chamber the pressures are higher because of the inertia of the projectile. Once the gun is fired, the projectile would not move till a certain pressure is reached, then in would start accelerating, but the projectile would move slower than the rate of gas development. You can see this in any barrel length-pressure graphic:

Hello Marcelo,

I tried again to get back to the original topic:

There is a publication, in a small edition, which not only explicitly lists
the differences between the 10.5 cm Krupp L/40 and L/45 guns, but
also explains the entire development of the model series over 50 years.

In this book, the entire 10.5 cm model range of the various developers
and manufacturers, such as Krupp, Erhardt, Rheinmetall, is explained
in detail and to scale with many drawings in detail and text.

All gun models are covered, from pure Naval guns on ships, coast-guns,
torpedo-boat- and submarine-variants up to anti-aircraft guns.

• - Title: 10.5 cm S.K.C./1932 . . . SAGA
  - The development of the 10.5 cm naval gun in the German army and navy from 1890 to 1945
  - Authors: Alexandrescu Vladimir, Dag Sundkuist
  - Publisher: CONCORDIA, ARAD - 2016. ISBN 978-606-627-044-1
  - 235 pages
  - about 200 drawings and pictures
  - A4 black/white and partially color format

Unfortunately, I can't insert any sensible images here, you can only link to ones that already exist:
https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailb ... rrinLaunch

Regards Holger