Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
My focus is more on being able to distinguish external characteristics. The back-ground is still there; -
if I stand before being able to differentiate, this is now a Krupp gun barrel L/40 or L/45 on a
Navy Mount M.P.L. C/1904 - C/1906.
(But I'm still looking forward to learning something other new)
In the meantime, I also consulted other sources and received detailed drawings of the two gun types L/40 and L/45.
Original Source: With kind permission by the book-author of: "10,5-cm S.K. C/32 . . . SAGA"
Original Source: With kind permission by the book-author of: "10,5-cm S.K. C/32 . . . SAGA"
Regards Holger
if I stand before being able to differentiate, this is now a Krupp gun barrel L/40 or L/45 on a
Navy Mount M.P.L. C/1904 - C/1906.
(But I'm still looking forward to learning something other new)
In the meantime, I also consulted other sources and received detailed drawings of the two gun types L/40 and L/45.
Original Source: With kind permission by the book-author of: "10,5-cm S.K. C/32 . . . SAGA"
Original Source: With kind permission by the book-author of: "10,5-cm S.K. C/32 . . . SAGA"
Regards Holger
- marcelo_malara
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Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
For example, this is captioned as a /45, enlarge the image and look at the muzzle, clearly a monoblock gun, no ring, breech integral with the barrel.Tool1958 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 6:36 am My focus is more on being able to distinguish external characteristics. The back-ground is still there; -
if I stand before being able to differentiate, this is now a Krupp gun barrel L/40 or L/45 on a
Navy Mount M.P.L. C/1904 - C/1906.
(But I'm still looking forward to learning something other new)
In the meantime, I also consulted other sources and received detailed drawings of the two gun types L/40 and L/45.
10,5-cm L40-1904.png
Original Source: With kind permission by the book-author of: "10,5-cm S.K. C/32 . . . SAGA"
10,5-cm L45-1906.png
Original Source: With kind permission by the book-author of: "10,5-cm S.K. C/32 . . . SAGA"
Regards Holger
http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/resiml ... i/1214.jpg
This (/40?) has a different muzzle, clearly a hooped gun, attached (in my opinion) breech.
Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
Correct!marcelo_malara wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:44 pm
This (/40?) has a different muzzle, clearly a hooped gun, attached (in my opinion) breech.
I am also quite sure that both gun barrels in front of the Naval Museum in Istanbul
are the L/40 version. Simply because of the distinctive 'Reinforcement Ring', which
as far as I know was only available in this version. Here is the same gun from behind.
10,5-cm Krupp L/40 Navy Gun at Istanbul Naval Museum / İstanbul Deniz Müzesi_1 Original Source: https://www.shutterstock.com/de/image-p ... 2213882687
10,5-cm Krupp L/40 Navy Gun at Istanbul Naval Museum / İstanbul Deniz Müzesi_2 Original Source: https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/old-nav ... 430754.jpg
I personally know of three further locations in Africa for the L/40 version. All three
Versions show the 10.5-cm Krupp S.K. L/40 of the small cruiser "SMS Königsberg"
Mombasa/Kenya - Pretoria/South Africa - Jinja/Uganda. Complete Background & Details:
http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/ger ... oyment.htm
Regards Holger
Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
Also correct! (The thickening in the front part of the gun barrelmarcelo_malara wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:44 pm
For example, this is captioned as a /45, enlarge the image and look at the muzzle, clearly a monoblock gun, no ring, breech integral with the barrel.
http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/resiml ... i/1214.jpg
looks somewhat strange. A real barrel-burst would look different?)
I admit that I only came across the information that it was an L/45 version from the Turkish translation.
Here the `copy and paste´ translated text passage from the Turkish Autor:
"105/45 gun exhibited in Seddülbahir Village square;
Picture 8: A view of the 105/45 gun displayed in the Seddülbahir Village square.
A 105/45 ship cannon is exhibited on the roadside in Seddülbahir Village, right
across from the mosque. The cannon exhibited here belongs to the Harapkale
Battery, which was established in 1916.
Harapkale Battery was established in October 1916 at the location known as Harap
Kale, Harap Tabya and Harap Tepe on the Rumelia Side of the Bosphorus. It is one
of the batteries established to strengthen the Bosphorus fortifications and to prevent
warships from navigating easily in front of the Bosphorus. The battery got its name
because the position where the cannons were placed was around Harap Kale.
The guns whose training was completed in October 1916 are 2 105/45 ship guns.
The gun's barrel length is 4725 cm. The wedge of the gun, which has 32
grooves/sets, is the manşuri wedge. Its range is approximately 12,000 meters."
Original Source: http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/789_ca ... akgun.html
The origin of the 10.5 cm L/45 version is clear. As briefly mentioned at the beginning,
only the "SMS Breslau" had this type of gun in the Turkish theater of war. Originally twelve
of these Q.L. guns were installed on this small cruiser of the Imperial Navy, which were
then replaced in 1915 and 1916 against eight larger 15-cm Krupp S.K. L/45.
Here is a picture of the SMS Breslau with both 10.5 cm L/45 and 15 cm L/45 https://content.invisioncic.com/r224821 ... 996958.png
Original Source:
The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1923, Edited & Translated by James Cooper, page 105
https://archive.org/details/learnislamp ... 3/mode/2up
Regards Holger
- marcelo_malara
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Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
So far I can discern three variants:
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun (the oldest model)
-L/40 without ring, monoblock (tentative, after seeing all the photos I do not recall with certainty if I there is one)
-L/45 without ring, monoblock (the more modern)
Do you concur with this? Of the second variant do you remember seeing it?
Regards
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun (the oldest model)
-L/40 without ring, monoblock (tentative, after seeing all the photos I do not recall with certainty if I there is one)
-L/45 without ring, monoblock (the more modern)
Do you concur with this? Of the second variant do you remember seeing it?
Regards
- marcelo_malara
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Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
The ring points to old guns, unequivocally. For a time I was thinking that it may be used to attach the dumpers, but not, it is even present in this old /35 that has no dumpers but a recoiling carriage.
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Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
marcelo_malara wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:34 pm So far I can discern three variants:
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun (the oldest model)
-L/40 without ring, monoblock (tentative, after seeing all the photos I do not recall with certainty if I there is one)
-L/45 without ring, monoblock (the more modern)
Do you concur with this? Of the second variant do you remember seeing it?
Regards
Hi Marcelo,
I probably didn't fully understand what you meant. (- -)
(With the pictures from here: https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtop ... 923#p91923)
VARIANT A
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1904
-L/40 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/ 1897
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906
VARIANT B
-L/40 without ring, monoblock ----Model C/ 1897
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1904
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906
Regards Holger
Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
Hi Marcelo,marcelo_malara wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:46 pm The ring points to old guns, unequivocally. For a time I was thinking that it may be used to attach the dumpers, but not, it is even present in this old /35 that has no dumpers but a recoiling carriage.
In your picture the shield trunnions are probably attached directly to the gun barrel.
Nevertheless, even with this older model, there was the option of a recoil absorber
being connected to the mount, as on this, 10.5-cm Krupp S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1891.
Original Source: http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php/fo ... geschuetze
Regards Holger
Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
The technical additions about mass, weight and ammunition are nice. Thanks. (- -)
I'm just wondering that the last, 10.5-cm L/50 version, which was only
produced in 1907, already appears in a sales catalog from 1901?
According to the original sources, only 8 pieces of this 10.5-cm L/50 version have
been produced in 1907 by Krupp. Here is some background information in the AHF.
Confirmation of 10,5-cm Q.F. L/50 fortification Swinemünde 1914
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 0&t=274039
Great; - I hereby order the L/40 and L/45 version via Amazon Prime."Note. - Everyone of the guns included in the Tables has been actually constructed and can be supplied on order."
Regards Holger
Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
THE 10,5-cm L/45 - M.P.L. C/1906 COMPLETE VERSION
The photo below shows, according to a very credible source, a 10.5-cm Krupp S.K.
L/45 on M.P.L. C/1906. However, the location is no longer known and cannot be traced.
Could it possibly be a museum? - In Europe? - Holland? -England? - Germany?
Can someone help me find the location.
Regards Holger
The photo below shows, according to a very credible source, a 10.5-cm Krupp S.K.
L/45 on M.P.L. C/1906. However, the location is no longer known and cannot be traced.
Could it possibly be a museum? - In Europe? - Holland? -England? - Germany?
Can someone help me find the location.
Regards Holger
- marcelo_malara
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- Posts: 1852
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Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
Well, I disagree with the year progression. For me it would be:Tool1958 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 7:34 ammarcelo_malara wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:34 pm So far I can discern three variants:
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun (the oldest model)
-L/40 without ring, monoblock (tentative, after seeing all the photos I do not recall with certainty if I there is one)
-L/45 without ring, monoblock (the more modern)
Do you concur with this? Of the second variant do you remember seeing it?
Regards
Hi Marcelo,
I probably didn't fully understand what you meant. (- -)
(With the pictures from here: https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtop ... 923#p91923)
VARIANT A
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1904
-L/40 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/ 1897
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906
VARIANT B
-L/40 without ring, monoblock ----Model C/ 1897
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1904
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906
Regards Holger
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1897
-L/40 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/ 1904
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906
This If the C/ year had any connection with the barrel version. But...I suspect that there is no connection, and that old barrels were mounted in modern mountings. I suspect too that the hopped /40 were much older than 1897.
- marcelo_malara
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- Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
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Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
Ohh ok, they added a dumper to the old principle of friction and gravity to slow the recoil. This is a 24cm Krupp here in Argentina, no dumper. Notice the ring near the breech.Tool1958 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:00 amHi Marcelo,marcelo_malara wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:46 pm The ring points to old guns, unequivocally. For a time I was thinking that it may be used to attach the dumpers, but not, it is even present in this old /35 that has no dumpers but a recoiling carriage.
In your picture the shield trunnions are probably attached directly to the gun barrel.
Nevertheless, even with this older model, there was the option of a recoil absorber
being connected to the mount, as on this, 10.5-cm Krupp S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1891.
den_helder-bewap070.jpg
den_helder-bewap073.jpg
Original Source: http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php/fo ... geschuetze
Regards Holger
Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
Hi Marcello,marcelo_malara wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 9:47 pm Well, I disagree with the year progression. For me it would be:
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1897
-L/40 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/ 1904
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906
This If the C/ year had any connection with the barrel version. But...I suspect that there is no connection, and that old
arrels were mounted in modern mountings. I suspect too that the hopped /40 were much older than 1897.
(Sorry for the late reply, I'm traveling and my Libyan AlMadar
SIM card has limited access as a hotspot here in Egypt)
Okay, I understand your argumentation. Sounds not unlogic.
So let's first try to focus our search on identifying the different L/40 versions.
⦁ The fact is that there were several development steps for the 10.5-cm S.K.
L/40 version in the gap between the 10,5-cm S.K. L/35 and L/45 barrel lengths.
⦁ We also know that the further development of the gun barrel almost always
coincided with that of the upper mount.This means that the barrel and the upper
carriage had the same year of development or construction.
⦁ All 10.5 cm L/40 model developments which were discussed here had a barrel return and
two recoil dampers arranged in parallel.
So it's about the following L/40 models, and only the model name for the gun barrel and upper mount
M.P.L. C/1897 - M.P.L. C/1900 - M.P.L. C/1904
Here is decisive evidence of the last L/40 model development C/1904 with `reinforcement ring´:
"SMS Emden-Gun" 10,5-cm S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1904 Original Source: https://s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com ... 24x768.jpg
"SMS Emden" 10,5 cm M.P.L. C/1904 / Fried. Krupp A.G. Essen Nr. 406 Original Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/147661871 ... 012891137/
Regards Holger
- marcelo_malara
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- Posts: 1852
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Re: Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?
Hi Holger. What about the barrel proper? Do they have any markings?Tool1958 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:16 pmHi Marcello,marcelo_malara wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 9:47 pm Well, I disagree with the year progression. For me it would be:
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1897
-L/40 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/ 1904
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906
This If the C/ year had any connection with the barrel version. But...I suspect that there is no connection, and that old
arrels were mounted in modern mountings. I suspect too that the hopped /40 were much older than 1897.
(Sorry for the late reply, I'm traveling and my Libyan AlMadar
SIM card has limited access as a hotspot here in Egypt)
Okay, I understand your argumentation. Sounds not unlogic.
So let's first try to focus our search on identifying the different L/40 versions.
⦁ The fact is that there were several development steps for the 10.5-cm S.K.
L/40 version in the gap between the 10,5-cm S.K. L/35 and L/45 barrel lengths.
⦁ We also know that the further development of the gun barrel almost always
coincided with that of the upper mount.This means that the barrel and the upper
carriage had the same year of development or construction.
⦁ All 10.5 cm L/40 model developments which were discussed here had a barrel return and
two recoil dampers arranged in parallel.
So it's about the following L/40 models, and only the model name for the gun barrel and upper mount
M.P.L. C/1897 - M.P.L. C/1900 - M.P.L. C/1904
Here is decisive evidence of the last L/40 model development C/1904 with `reinforcement ring´:
"SMS Emden-Gun" 10,5-cm S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1904
SMS Emden-Gun 10,5-cm S.K. L40 M.P.L. C1904.jpg
Original Source: https://s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com ... 24x768.jpg
"SMS Emden" 10,5 cm M.P.L. C/1904 / Fried. Krupp A.G. Essen Nr. 406
SMS Emden Gun - 10,5cm M.P.L. C1904.png
Original Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/147661871 ... 012891137/
Regards Holger