Differences between 10,5-cm (4.1") Krupp Naval guns S.K. L/40 and L/45?

[Tool1958]

My focus is more on being able to distinguish external characteristics. The back-ground is still there; -
if I stand before being able to differentiate, this is now a Krupp gun barrel L/40 or L/45 on a
Navy Mount M.P.L. C/1904 - C/1906.

(But I'm still looking forward to learning something other new)


In the meantime, I also consulted other sources and received detailed drawings of the two gun types L/40 and L/45.

10,5-cm L40-1904.png (224.63 KiB) Viewed 51184 times

Original Source: With kind permission by the book-author of: "10,5-cm S.K. C/32 . . . SAGA"

10,5-cm L45-1906.png (239.1 KiB) Viewed 51184 times

Original Source: With kind permission by the book-author of: "10,5-cm S.K. C/32 . . . SAGA"


Regards Holger

[marcelo_malara]

My focus is more on being able to distinguish external characteristics. The back-ground is still there; -
if I stand before being able to differentiate, this is now a Krupp gun barrel L/40 or L/45 on a
Navy Mount M.P.L. C/1904 - C/1906.

(But I'm still looking forward to learning something other new)


In the meantime, I also consulted other sources and received detailed drawings of the two gun types L/40 and L/45.


10,5-cm L40-1904.png
Original Source: With kind permission by the book-author of: "10,5-cm S.K. C/32 . . . SAGA"



10,5-cm L45-1906.png
Original Source: With kind permission by the book-author of: "10,5-cm S.K. C/32 . . . SAGA"


Regards Holger

For example, this is captioned as a /45, enlarge the image and look at the muzzle, clearly a monoblock gun, no ring, breech integral with the barrel.

http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/resiml ... i/1214.jpg


This (/40?) has a different muzzle, clearly a hooped gun, attached (in my opinion) breech.

[Tool1958]

This (/40?) has a different muzzle, clearly a hooped gun, attached (in my opinion) breech.

Correct!

I am also quite sure that both gun barrels in front of the Naval Museum in Istanbul
are the L/40 version. Simply because of the distinctive 'Reinforcement Ring', which
as far as I know was only available in this version. Here is the same gun from behind.


10,5-cm Krupp L/40 Navy Gun at Istanbul Naval Museum / İstanbul Deniz Müzesi_1

10,5-cm Krupp L40 Navy Gun at Istanbul Naval Museum İstanbul Deniz Müzesi_1.png (164.47 KiB) Viewed 51064 times

Original Source: https://www.shutterstock.com/de/image-p ... 2213882687



10,5-cm Krupp L/40 Navy Gun at Istanbul Naval Museum / İstanbul Deniz Müzesi_2

10,5-cm Krupp L40 Navy Gun at Istanbul Naval Museum İstanbul Deniz Müzesi_2.jpg (46.05 KiB) Viewed 51064 times

Original Source: https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/old-nav ... 430754.jpg



I personally know of three further locations in Africa for the L/40 version. All three
Versions show the 10.5-cm Krupp S.K. L/40 of the small cruiser "SMS Königsberg"
Mombasa/Kenya - Pretoria/South Africa - Jinja/Uganda. Complete Background & Details:
http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/ger ... oyment.htm

Regards Holger

[Tool1958]

For example, this is captioned as a /45, enlarge the image and look at the muzzle, clearly a monoblock gun, no ring, breech integral with the barrel.
http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/resiml ... i/1214.jpg

Also correct! (The thickening in the front part of the gun barrel
looks somewhat strange. A real barrel-burst would look different?)

I admit that I only came across the information that it was an L/45 version from the Turkish translation.

Here the `copy and paste´ translated text passage from the Turkish Autor:

"105/45 gun exhibited in Seddülbahir Village square;
Picture 8: A view of the 105/45 gun displayed in the Seddülbahir Village square.

A 105/45 ship cannon is exhibited on the roadside in Seddülbahir Village, right
across from the mosque. The cannon exhibited here belongs to the Harapkale
Battery, which was established in 1916.

Harapkale Battery was established in October 1916 at the location known as Harap
Kale, Harap Tabya and Harap Tepe on the Rumelia Side of the Bosphorus. It is one
of the batteries established to strengthen the Bosphorus fortifications and to prevent
warships from navigating easily in front of the Bosphorus. The battery got its name
because the position where the cannons were placed was around Harap Kale.

The guns whose training was completed in October 1916 are 2 105/45 ship guns.
The gun's barrel length is 4725 cm. The wedge of the gun, which has 32
grooves/sets, is the manşuri wedge. Its range is approximately 12,000 meters."

Original Source: http://www.geliboluyuanlamak.com/789_ca ... akgun.html


The origin of the 10.5 cm L/45 version is clear. As briefly mentioned at the beginning,
only the "SMS Breslau" had this type of gun in the Turkish theater of war. Originally twelve
of these Q.L. guns were installed on this small cruiser of the Imperial Navy, which were
then replaced in 1915 and 1916 against eight larger 15-cm Krupp S.K. L/45.

Here is a picture of the SMS Breslau with both 10.5 cm L/45 and 15 cm L/45

SMS Breslau with 10,5-cm L-45 and 15-cm L-45 S.K.jpg (32.61 KiB) Viewed 51053 times

https://content.invisioncic.com/r224821 ... 996958.png

Original Source:
The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1923, Edited & Translated by James Cooper, page 105
https://archive.org/details/learnislamp ... 3/mode/2up


Regards Holger

[marcelo_malara]

So far I can discern three variants:

-L/40 with ring, hopped gun (the oldest model)
-L/40 without ring, monoblock (tentative, after seeing all the photos I do not recall with certainty if I there is one)
-L/45 without ring, monoblock (the more modern)

Do you concur with this? Of the second variant do you remember seeing it?

Regards

[marcelo_malara]

The ring points to old guns, unequivocally. For a time I was thinking that it may be used to attach the dumpers, but not, it is even present in this old /35 that has no dumpers but a recoiling carriage.

[marcelo_malara]

From Brassey´s 1902:



https://postimg.cc/zy6NtNhW

[Tool1958]

So far I can discern three variants:

-L/40 with ring, hopped gun (the oldest model)
-L/40 without ring, monoblock (tentative, after seeing all the photos I do not recall with certainty if I there is one)
-L/45 without ring, monoblock (the more modern)

Do you concur with this? Of the second variant do you remember seeing it?

Regards

Hi Marcelo,

I probably didn't fully understand what you meant. (- -)

(With the pictures from here: https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtop ... 923#p91923)

VARIANT A
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1904
-L/40 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/ 1897
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906


VARIANT B
-L/40 without ring, monoblock ----Model C/ 1897
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1904
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906

Regards Holger

[Tool1958]

The ring points to old guns, unequivocally. For a time I was thinking that it may be used to attach the dumpers, but not, it is even present in this old /35 that has no dumpers but a recoiling carriage.

Hi Marcelo,

In your picture the shield trunnions are probably attached directly to the gun barrel.
Nevertheless, even with this older model, there was the option of a recoil absorber
being connected to the mount, as on this, 10.5-cm Krupp S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1891.

den_helder-bewap070.jpg (80.67 KiB) Viewed 50907 times

den_helder-bewap073.jpg (101.06 KiB) Viewed 50907 times

Original Source: http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php/fo ... geschuetze

Regards Holger

[Tool1958]

From Brassey´s 1902: https://postimg.cc/zy6NtNhW

The technical additions about mass, weight and ammunition are nice. Thanks. (- -)

10,5-cm Krupp Table for Q.F. Guns.jpg (55.02 KiB) Viewed 50872 times

I'm just wondering that the last, 10.5-cm L/50 version, which was only
produced in 1907, already appears in a sales catalog from 1901?


According to the original sources, only 8 pieces of this 10.5-cm L/50 version have
been produced in 1907 by Krupp. Here is some background information in the AHF.


Confirmation of 10,5-cm Q.F. L/50 fortification Swinemünde 1914
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 0&t=274039

"Note. - Everyone of the guns included in the Tables has been actually constructed and can be supplied on order."

Great; - I hereby order the L/40 and L/45 version via Amazon Prime.

Regards Holger

[Tool1958]

THE 10,5-cm L/45 - M.P.L. C/1906 COMPLETE VERSION

The photo below shows, according to a very credible source, a 10.5-cm Krupp S.K.
L/45 on M.P.L. C/1906. However, the location is no longer known and cannot be traced.

10,5 cm SK. L45 on M.P.L. C1906.jpg (77.55 KiB) Viewed 50869 times

Could it possibly be a museum? - In Europe? - Holland? -England? - Germany?

Can someone help me find the location.

Regards Holger

[marcelo_malara]

So far I can discern three variants:

-L/40 with ring, hopped gun (the oldest model)
-L/40 without ring, monoblock (tentative, after seeing all the photos I do not recall with certainty if I there is one)
-L/45 without ring, monoblock (the more modern)

Do you concur with this? Of the second variant do you remember seeing it?

Regards

Hi Marcelo,

I probably didn't fully understand what you meant. (- -)

(With the pictures from here: https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtop ... 923#p91923)

VARIANT A
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1904
-L/40 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/ 1897
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906


VARIANT B
-L/40 without ring, monoblock ----Model C/ 1897
-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1904
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906

Regards Holger

Well, I disagree with the year progression. For me it would be:

-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1897
-L/40 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/ 1904
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906

This If the C/ year had any connection with the barrel version. But...I suspect that there is no connection, and that old barrels were mounted in modern mountings. I suspect too that the hopped /40 were much older than 1897.

[marcelo_malara]

The ring points to old guns, unequivocally. For a time I was thinking that it may be used to attach the dumpers, but not, it is even present in this old /35 that has no dumpers but a recoiling carriage.

Hi Marcelo,

In your picture the shield trunnions are probably attached directly to the gun barrel.
Nevertheless, even with this older model, there was the option of a recoil absorber
being connected to the mount, as on this, 10.5-cm Krupp S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1891.


den_helder-bewap070.jpg


den_helder-bewap073.jpg

Original Source: http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php/fo ... geschuetze

Regards Holger

Ohh ok, they added a dumper to the old principle of friction and gravity to slow the recoil. This is a 24cm Krupp here in Argentina, no dumper. Notice the ring near the breech.

[Tool1958]

Well, I disagree with the year progression. For me it would be:

-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1897
-L/40 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/ 1904
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906

This If the C/ year had any connection with the barrel version. But...I suspect that there is no connection, and that old
arrels were mounted in modern mountings. I suspect too that the hopped /40 were much older than 1897.

Hi Marcello,

(Sorry for the late reply, I'm traveling and my Libyan AlMadar
SIM card has limited access as a hotspot here in Egypt)


Okay, I understand your argumentation. Sounds not unlogic.
So let's first try to focus our search on identifying the different L/40 versions.

⦁ The fact is that there were several development steps for the 10.5-cm S.K.
L/40 version in the gap between the 10,5-cm S.K. L/35 and L/45 barrel lengths.

⦁ We also know that the further development of the gun barrel almost always
coincided with that of the upper mount.This means that the barrel and the upper
carriage had the same year of development or construction.

⦁ All 10.5 cm L/40 model developments which were discussed here had a barrel return and
two recoil dampers arranged in parallel.

So it's about the following L/40 models, and only the model name for the gun barrel and upper mount
M.P.L. C/1897 - M.P.L. C/1900 - M.P.L. C/1904


Here is decisive evidence of the last L/40 model development C/1904 with `reinforcement ring´:

"SMS Emden-Gun" 10,5-cm S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1904

SMS Emden-Gun 10,5-cm S.K. L40 M.P.L. C1904.jpg (86.43 KiB) Viewed 50076 times

Original Source: https://s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com ... 24x768.jpg



"SMS Emden" 10,5 cm M.P.L. C/1904 / Fried. Krupp A.G. Essen Nr. 406

SMS Emden Gun - 10,5cm M.P.L. C1904.png (166.99 KiB) Viewed 50076 times

Original Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/147661871 ... 012891137/


Regards Holger

[marcelo_malara]

Well, I disagree with the year progression. For me it would be:

-L/40 with ring, hopped gun ------ Modell C/1897
-L/40 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/ 1904
-L/45 without ring, monoblock --- Model C/1906

This If the C/ year had any connection with the barrel version. But...I suspect that there is no connection, and that old
arrels were mounted in modern mountings. I suspect too that the hopped /40 were much older than 1897.

Hi Marcello,

(Sorry for the late reply, I'm traveling and my Libyan AlMadar
SIM card has limited access as a hotspot here in Egypt)


Okay, I understand your argumentation. Sounds not unlogic.
So let's first try to focus our search on identifying the different L/40 versions.

⦁ The fact is that there were several development steps for the 10.5-cm S.K.
L/40 version in the gap between the 10,5-cm S.K. L/35 and L/45 barrel lengths.

⦁ We also know that the further development of the gun barrel almost always
coincided with that of the upper mount.This means that the barrel and the upper
carriage had the same year of development or construction.

⦁ All 10.5 cm L/40 model developments which were discussed here had a barrel return and
two recoil dampers arranged in parallel.

So it's about the following L/40 models, and only the model name for the gun barrel and upper mount
M.P.L. C/1897 - M.P.L. C/1900 - M.P.L. C/1904


Here is decisive evidence of the last L/40 model development C/1904 with `reinforcement ring´:

"SMS Emden-Gun" 10,5-cm S.K. L/40 M.P.L. C/1904
SMS Emden-Gun 10,5-cm S.K. L40 M.P.L. C1904.jpg
Original Source: https://s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com ... 24x768.jpg



"SMS Emden" 10,5 cm M.P.L. C/1904 / Fried. Krupp A.G. Essen Nr. 406
SMS Emden Gun - 10,5cm M.P.L. C1904.png
Original Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/147661871 ... 012891137/


Regards Holger

Hi Holger. What about the barrel proper? Do they have any markings?