Naval History Forums

My vote is for Nelson - no contest really!

Ciao all,

as said I do admire H. Nelson as well, and many others too.

But my vote goes to Andrea Doria.

Ciao Antonio

As this is a Bismarck website has anybody noticed that there is one admiral NOT featured in the poll?

I wonder why not!

No Lutjens, no Holland, no Wake-Walker and no Tovey. The four of them can´t make a Nelson...

hey...
i agree that they cannot be compared to Nelson....
but still especially Tovey and Lütjens are mentionable..

Tovey had to work with enormous stress and he always kept the HOME safe...

Lütjens was the creator of the Channel Dash...
thats worth mentioning...

adios
miro

miro777 wrote:hey...

Lütjens was the creator of the Channel Dash...
thats worth mentioning...

adios
miro

The Channel dash operation was actually the idea of Hitler; Raeder had suggested bringing Prinz Eugen home via the Channel to Hitler, who replied ''why not bring the three of them home that way?''.
Raeder was initially sceptical, tried to talk Hitler out of it, but it was then Ciliax who enthusiastically pushed for it, not least because of the problem of the RAF continually bombing Brest.

If Jon Parshall (http://www.combinedfleet.com) is right in his book about Midway (Shattered Sword) then Yamamoto was far from being even considered as a great admiral.
In the book Yamamoto is described, more or less, as a political oportunist.

Karl Heidenreich wrote:If Jon Parshall (http://www.combinedfleet.com) is right in his book about Midway (Shattered Sword) then Yamamoto was far from being even considered as a great admiral.
In the book Yamamoto is described, more or less, as a political oportunist.

For what purpose? He was against starting the Pacific War anyway.

RF:

For what purpose? He was against starting the Pacific War anyway.

I´m going to order that book today or tomorrow, so I´ll have it in 2-3 weeks and read it in another couple of weeks. Then I can be more specific.
But something I´m sure about: there are a lot of myths about WWII: Rommel, Monty, Patton´s "accident", Pearl, the russian commies, you name it! And now there are a lot more investigaton material and more "objective" capability from serious writers and historians than it could have been 20 or 30 years ago.
A lot of what we know from Yamamoto came from Fushida and, some believe, is a biased account.
As I said, I´ll have to read the book first, but the allegations don´t seem to me wild. For example: Myth No. 1: Yamamoto was a superb and cunning commander that was very strict with detail. So, how come his Midway Operation was so disorganized from the very beggining? Just look at this: he dispersed his units with the diversion at the Aleutians; two aircraft carriers gone away from where they were most needed. Just think about that.

The Midway operation was very complex and detailed and not disorganised. What ruined all the planning was that the Americans had broken the Japanese codes and were aware of the Japs intentions.

The Aluetians feint had to look realistic, hence the detachment of carriers.

The Americans had the advantage of concentrating what they had in the critical sector and had the great fortune to hit the Jap carriers at their weakest moment, with planes, bombs and torpedoes to act as tinder.

If there were Japanese failings, these were:

1)Failure to equip their ships with radar. The Japs were aware of radar as the Germans had it.

2)Failure to notice their codes were being broken, and changing their code system.

Would the Americans have won such a decisive victory in ignorance of the Japanese plans? I doubt it.

Overall Yammamoto was about the best commander the Japanese had, he did use his imagination. The rest of the commanders were far more defensive and pessimistic in nature, particulary Nagumo, rather in fact like Lutjens in the Bismarck.

Karl Heidenreich wrote: Myth No. 1: Yamamoto was a superb and cunning commander that was very strict with detail. So, how come his Midway Operation was so disorganized from the very beggining? Just look at this: he dispersed his units with the diversion at the Aleutians; two aircraft carriers gone away from where they were most needed. Just think about that.

Apart from Rommel, Yammamoto was the only Axis military field commander specifically targeted by the Allies for assassination. If he was no good, the Allies would want to keep him in command - which is why Operation Foxley was abandoned, ie the British plan to assassinate Hitler.

RF,
we must not evaluate the axis commanders for what the allies believed in that moment. Rommel and Yamamoto where prestige trophys, myths built by the same allied country´s press. In order to eliminate their ghost from the soldiers´minds the allied commanders decided to murder them (I never heard about a war crime trial against those who planned and execute at least Yamamoto´s). But that doesn´t mean they were the superb commanders claimed.
In Phillipines Yamashita was a bigger problem for Old Mac than Yamamoto was for Nimitz.
As a matter of fact both, Rommel and Yamamoto were already defeated when they died: one at the hand of Monty and the other at Nimitz´.

I don't think either Rommel or Yammamoto were superb or infallible, on the other hand they were far better than some of their contemporaries. They were both good tactical commanders fighting a war in which their countries faced strategic defeat, their ability is measured in terms of prolonging a war their countries couldn't win.

Zhukov and Patten were good tank division commanders - they were fighting for countries assured of strategic victory so it was far easier to win the tactical battles and keep winning.

Sam Houston was a very good tactical commander and a strategic one as well. He allowed a significant defeat - the Alamo - in order to have the opportunity of victory on the San Jacinto. I mention this incidentaly because the John Wayne directed film didn't, people remember the defeat and not the victory.

RF,
the new movie about El Alamo records the victory also. In Latin America the movie wasn´t very well received, obvious, but it´s quite good.
Let´s return to the thread because this time José is going to scold us.

miro777 wrote:
Lütjens was the creator of the Channel Dash...
thats worth mentioning...

adios
miro

Lütjens was long dead when the first meetings about the channel dash were held.