French Navy on WWI and WWII

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:44 pm

What was the overall performance of the French Navy at WWI and WWII? As far as I understand at WWII all her ships were interned, captured, sunk and her role was nil in favour of Vichy or against the Germans.
With the disaster of Trafalgar on her record that brings a very unfavourable history (remember the Nile too), but I hope to learn something about that navy at WWI too because I refuse to accept that they did nothing to help the British.

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:54 pm

I am posting a brief of the French battleships at WWII:

Courbett class:
-Jean Bart: desarmed in 1937, renamed Ocean, asigned to training.
-Courbet: fire support against the Germans in Chebourg in 1940. Then she went to England, where was disarmed.
-Paris: to England 1940, disarmed.

Bretagne class:
-Bretange: blown at Mers-el-Kebir.
-Provence: heavely hit in the same action. Sailed to Toulon to repair, where was scuttled in 1942.
-Lorraine: join the Allies at Alexadria. Fire support in landings in Europe afterward.

Dunkerque class:
-Dunkerque: patrols against raiders until June 1940. Sunk at Mers-el-Kebir, then refloated and went to Toulon for repairs. Scuttled 1942.
-Strasbourg: patrols against raiders until June 1940. Little damage at Mers-el-Kebir. Then to Toulon for refit, where she was sabotaged by her crew.

Richelieu class:
-Richelieu: damaged at Dakar. Join the Allies after the landings in North Africa. Sailed to USA for refit. Operated with English units in the Norway coast in 1/1944. Then joined Allied forces in the Far East. Fire support in landings there. Return to Casablanca for refit 10/1944. Back to Far East 1/1945, more fire support.

Taken from Battleships of World War II (M.J.Whitley).

Ulrich Rudofsky · Post by **Ulrich Rudofsky** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:07 pm

The French Navy in WWII got squeezed into several bad situations of several politcal games involving Great Britain, the USA, and Germany. Overall, it was a very fine and many modern navy with great gunnery and ships. See
Hitler & La Flotte Francaise: Toulon 1940-44. by Kowark, Hannsjoerg (in French). The German edition (Das Ende der französischen Flotte im Zweiten Weltkrieg: Toulon 1940-1944), has great photos and a thorough scholarly text. I don't know if this book exists in English. Also check out the duel between the USS Massachusetts vs. the Jean Bart, and the HMS Hood attack.

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:45 pm

And WWI?

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:57 pm

According to All the world´s battleships (Ian Sturton) all four originally Courbet class (Courbet, France, Jean bart and Paris) operated in the Mediterranean in WWI, escort and blocking tasks, no action.
The Bretagne class (Bretagne, Lorraine and Provence) joined the fleet in 1916 and was asigned to the Mediterranean as well, no action too.

Ulrich Rudofsky · Post by **Ulrich Rudofsky** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:50 pm

The French losses of naval ships as listed by the British are shown here

Jane's Fighting Ships of World War I: a comprehensive encyclopedia with more than 1000 illustration was published in 1919 and reprinted by Random House in 1990. It also lists all the German losses, including the ships scuttled at Scapa Flow or turned over to the enemy after the armistice.

Table of Contents: http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... tjanes.jpg

iankw · Post by **iankw** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:24 am

The French provided several predreadnoughts for bombardment purposes during the Gallipoli campaign, losing one to mines. Also the unofficial agreement between the French and the British allowed the Grand Fleet to concentrate in the North Sea, iirc. I also seem to recall that the French were, not surprisingly, a little put out when the British goverment hummed and aahhed about declaring war. They felt that the unofficial talks had caused them to distribute their forces poorly if the Brits didn't join in. According to Marder, anyway.

regards

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:30 pm

But, in conclusion can we say that the French Navy was negligible from a relevant maritime point of view in WWI and WWII?

The fighting was, as all the XXth Century, British (and her Commonwealth), American, Japanese and German. Well, and Russian as far as Tsushima goes.

ostriker · Post by **ostriker** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:08 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:But, in conclusion can we say that the French Navy was negligible from a relevant maritime point of view in WWI and WWII?
The fighting was, as all the XXth Century, British (and her Commonwealth), American, Japanese and German. Well, and Russian as far as Tsushima goes.

Yes we can, without any hesitation.
We also say (according to all your post) that you are the anti - french 2006 trophy winner

Bgile · Post by **Bgile** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:25 pm

We in the United States may owe our independence to the French Navy. If they hadn't defeated the British fleet off Yorktown, the French and American army might not have been able to force Cornwallis to surrender.

On another topic, one thing overlooked in the post about French WWII action was the various engagements between the US and French naval units surrounding the US invasion of N. Africa. It included but was not limited to an engagement between USS Massachusetts and Jean Bart. It was unfortunate, but the fact is we were violating their neutrality.