The Greatest Naval Battle in History

General naval discussions that don't fit within any specific time period or cover several issues.

Which was the greatest naval battle in history?

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frankwl
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by frankwl »

Salamis helped save Greek culture but did not save Athens and ultimately was of less importance than Plataea; the defeat of the Armada saved England but was more of a victory of wind and weather and superior seamanship than a knock down drag out naval battle; Trafalgar was magnificent but Napoleon had already abandoned his plans to invade the British Isles, at least partly because of the stubborn English blockade of the Channel. At Midway the U.S. Navy, outnumbered and outgunned and with inferior equipment stopped a rampaging Japanese combined fleet that had kicked the old empires out of the Pacific and was ultimately threatening Hawaii and the West Coast of the U.S. and Canada. A Japanese victory at Midway might not have meant ultimate victory for the Empire of Japan but America would have demanded a Pacific first policy which might have meant a great deal to Great Britain and D-Day. Midway changed the Second World War as much as Stalingrad.
frankwl
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by frankwl »

This is fun. So hard nowadays to find anyone who cares. Anyway, I think Jutland was quite decisive in it's way because Jellicoe didn't have to win, all he had to do was not lose. And the German High Seas fleet for all it's deadly competence was running for its life the moment it realized the Grand Fleet was at sea across the horizon. Jellicoe crossed their T more than once, no mean feat, considering communications back then and if that goof Beatty had used the 5th Battle Squadron properly then the toll of battle cruisers would have been on the British side. The Queen Elizabeths firing on pre-war German battle cruisers? C'mon. The battle turns that Hipper and Scheer pulled off were nothing short of magnificent but they were defensive moves practiced in case they ever encountered the Grand Fleet. The German navy retreated to its well guarded anchorages and German civilians continued to starve due to the North Sea blockade. Nobody put it better than the American journalist who said that the German navy has assaulted its jailer but it is still in jail,
frankwl
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Post by frankwl »

marcelo_malara wrote:I think Jutland is the greatest CONVENTIONAL (ie: no aircraft carriers) naval battle of all times. This puts Midway and Leyte Gulf out of the discussion.
Think of it: almost 60 battleships and battlecruisers fighting in the North Sea, two British battlecruisers lost with 3000 lives in a matter of minutes.
For comparision, the Kriegsmarine only have 4 battleships in WWII.
I believe that if the losses were no greater was because of the German decision of not fully engaging with the British fleet.
I think, with my limited knowledge of naval history, that there is no other battle in history in which so much firepower was called upon.
Yes, and think of this. On any of those Grand Fleet ships no one from a midshipman to the captain to the future King George VI could tell when a 12 inch or 13.5 armor piercing shell was going to come screaming out of the sky and blow your ship apart. No ships, not even capital ships, were immune to that kind of firepower. Same goes for the German High Seas fleet facing for the first time the 15 inch guns of the latest British battleships. I admire your observations.
frankwl
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by frankwl »

The impact of naval battles is not always obvious. The 1866 Battle of Lissa is certainly one of the most interesting (and confused) in history, the composition of the opposing Austrian and Italian fleets, ironclads and wooden battleships mixing it up together makes it sound almost like steampunk fiction. The Austrian victory, in the end, had little influence on Otto Bismarck's carefully conceived humbling of Austria and certainly didn't do much for Italian irredente. However, because the hostile fleets tired of blasting away at each other with little outcome they took to trying to ram each other like a medieval melee at sea, with some result, including sinking the biggest ship in the Italian fleet. As a result navies around the world decided ramming was the way to win naval battles and, ignoring the rapid advancement in gun power, put ram bows on ships of all kinds. Ramming was never again a factor in any major naval battles but the ram bows certainly made friendly ships dangerous to each other in the event of collisions which became catastrophies. And if you like, inspired H.G. Wells to create wonderful old HMS Thunder Child and one of the more interesting passages in science fiction.
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RF
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

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frankwl wrote:The impact of naval battles is not always obvious. The 1866 Battle of Lissa........ The Austrian victory, in the end, had little influence on Otto Bismarck's carefully conceived humbling of Austria .
Are you sure?

Using Italy as a distraction was a key part of Bismarck's strategy in the 1866 war. And Italy was on the winning side - so the ''Austrian victory'' didn't even influence the outcome on that front. Certainly not for the citizens of Venice, who passed from Austrian to Italian rule.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
frankwl
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by frankwl »

Hi, no actually I'm not sure. Nothing is "sure" when debating history. But the Austrians did win the Battle of Lissa and that battle did not change the Prussian victory over the Austrians. (Although I have read lately that it wasn't as absolute as we were taught in high school and there were reasons why Bismarck didn't take Vienna.) When I refer to the battle as "confused" I'm alluding as well to the political and social factors, such as the number of Venetian crewmen in the Austiran fleet, that Tegehtoff trained in Venice and that Venice, that most intriguing of cities, wasn't all that crazy about irredente. I'm just so happy in this day in age to be in contact with someone who has heard of Admiral Tegehtoff, Otto Bismarck or the 1866 war. All the best.
frankwl
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by frankwl »

Am I missing something due to my advanced age? Why this constant, and annoying, reference to a ping pong lame line from a James Bond movie? Does it have some secrete Masonic significance?
lwd
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by lwd »

That's strange I don't remember it being from a James Bond movie.
frankwl
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by frankwl »

Actually neither do I, although I've been a James Bond fan even before there were movies about 007. But the pinging and ponging thing is used frequently as a corollary to comments and always attributed to Sean Connery so I made an assumption. I suppose it's some piece of pop culture that passed me by and I don't understand the significance.
lwd
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by lwd »

Right actor wrong charcter. It's from Hunt for Red October. People use all sorts of odd things in thier sigs ....
frankwl
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by frankwl »

Thank you very much. I loved Hunt For Red October but missed that completely, advanced senility I guess. That movie, combined with what has been revealed lately about the brushes between Soviet and American submarines during the Cold War makes one gulp.
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RF
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by RF »

And on that note, a happy ping to you. And here's that signature again....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
frankwl
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by frankwl »

Okay, I give up and accept I'm just another grumpy old man. I will never again object to a ping or a pong or anybody's right to sign off with anything they choose. All the best.
frankwl
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

Post by frankwl »

"White founts falling in the courts of the sun and the Soldam of Byzantium is laughing as they run ..." I remember standing in Venice and thinking those lines, surrounded by family who I love dearly, but totally alone and wishing G.K. Chesterton was there. This is Venice! Andrea Adoria. Tegethoff. Marco frigging Polo. And all my wife wants to do is shop? Oh, heck, maybe she was right but what I wouldn't have given way back then for a naval history website like this where someone would understand when I shouted "I'm here! A few hundred years too late, but I'm here!"
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RF
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Re: The Greatest Naval Battle in History

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And presumably not an Austrian flag in sight...... Actually you probably won't find an Italian one either, as only the flags of the EU seem to count in those areas of the world.....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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