Re: Sea Lion 1941
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:35 pm
I think it would have succeeded under a bold and intelligent commander, only the Germans didn't have one.
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RF wrote:I think it would have succeeded under a bold and intelligent commander, only the Germans didn't have one.
???? Talk about broken logic and opinion leading to faulty conclusions. Care to make a case for that?Karl Heidenreich wrote:... not the rest of commanders that were superior to all the rest of commanders of WWII put together... and I am thinking in Manstein alone...
Not to you... ever!Care to make a case for that?
All of them brilliant commanders in terms of land warfare. But with respect their expertise in combined land, air and naval operations was not given much opportunity for operations like Sea Lion. Hitler never appointed an equivalent of Eisenhower for Sea Lion, beyond himself performing the role.....ede144 wrote:I woud bring in Guderian, von Rundstett, von Manstein.
And this are the first 3 names which come into my mind
It doesn't help to quote out of the context in which my post was made. I was referring to a bold intelligent commander in combined land, sea and air operations. The Germans had bold and intelligent commanders in specialist roles in each of the three combat services, but not any capable of performing equally brilliantly in all three. The nearest they had were Kesselring and perhaps Marcks.Byron Angel wrote:..... Really? No bold and intelligent commanders? How interesting.BRF wrote:I think it would have succeeded under a bold and intelligent commander, only the Germans didn't have one.
RF wrote:It doesn't help to quote out of the context in which my post was made. I was referring to a bold intelligent commander in combined land, sea and air operations. The Germans had bold and intelligent commanders in specialist roles in each of the three combat services, but not any capable of performing equally brilliantly in all three. The nearest they had were Kesselring and perhaps Marcks.Byron Angel wrote:..... Really? No bold and intelligent commanders? How interesting.BRF wrote:I think it would have succeeded under a bold and intelligent commander, only the Germans didn't have one.
The invasion of Norway springs to mind - but even here there was separate army and naval planning, not a joint inter-service military command. And the demands on military planning were not too onerous for what was a surprise operation against a neutral and largely unarmed open country.
Over some allied forces perhaps but the USMC for instance had done a lot of work on air/ground combined operations in the interwar years and also done considerable theoretical work on opposed invasions.Byron Angel wrote: ... There were many reasons why Sea Lion would quite likely have failed, but the Germans were no better or worse off than their Allied opponents in terms of combined arms command skill sets. In fact, an arguable case can be made that, in terms of air/ground combined operations (as in tactical air support) the German started the war well ahead.
lwd wrote:Over some allied forces perhaps but the USMC for instance had done a lot of work on air/ground combined operations in the interwar years and also done considerable theoretical work on opposed invasions.Byron Angel wrote: ... There were many reasons why Sea Lion would quite likely have failed, but the Germans were no better or worse off than their Allied opponents in terms of combined arms command skill sets. In fact, an arguable case can be made that, in terms of air/ground combined operations (as in tactical air support) the German started the war well ahead.
I never said any such thing about the Allies, or implied it. My comments concerned the Germans and not anybody else. Your question hence of the Allies experience of amphibious operations 1941 is irrelevant.Byron Angel wrote: ..... You make it sound like the Allies were simply teeming with commanders sporting combined operations experience and training. What prior experience and training in major combined arms operations did senior Allied comanders bring to the table in 1941? Gallipoli?
Agreed.There were many reasons why Sea Lion would quite likely have failed
In terms of blitzkrieg they certainly were. However blitzkrieg was only two dimensional, focussed on land campaigns and not focussed on waging war against a seapower. Hence the Germans had no means of tackiling the USA effectively once they had declared war on the US - except perhaps hope that the Japanese could do it for them...., but the Germans were no better or worse off than their Allied opponents in terms of combined arms command skill sets. In fact, an arguable case can be made that, in terms of air/ground combined operations (as in tactical air support) the German started the war well ahead.