Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

[Byron Angel]

Oh my Good Lord ..... not again.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Byron:

Oh my Good Lord ..... not again.

Byron, not worry, at least my intention when posted the links with the documentary was just to let others watch it, not to re start an already closed discussion. To be honest, if I knew that mkenny was still out there I would have not publish the links in order to avoid his appearance at the forum, which is something a great number of active members do not want to happen. If you see, in the initial post there is no comment nor intention of a discussion.

Now, it is obvious that both, lwd and Bgile, will now side with mkenny, not because this guy (after the beatings he got at the Monty and troop quantities in the East and West fronts (Glantz) discussions) is correct but because they must draw attention out of the latest developments at the long gunnery fire thread. So, there may be the temptation to re start this discusion and it will be my fault for bringing mkenny as Father Merrin brings the devil in the Exorcist. So, I will not post anything more here and will not answer any provocation from trollish nature.

Regards,

Karl

[lwd]

It's rather apparent that your reality is currently a long way from mine. I think the facts speak for themselves as to which of ours is closer to correct.

[mkenny]

Now, it is obvious that both, lwd and Bgile, will now side with mkenny, not because this guy (after the beatings he got at the Monty and troop quantities in the East and West fronts (Glantz) discussions) is correct

I fell off my chair laughing! Knowing you lost the factual debate you fall back on calumy.
What can you expect from a fan-boy. Every time you point out the truth to them they retreat into insult and denial.
I see now it is now claimed it is part of a bigger conspiracy to 'get' the self-proclaimed keepers of the flame.
Hubris writ large!

So, I will not post anything more here and will not answer any provocation

Which is why I am here. To stamp on this wilful distortion of history. To end the inflation of the reputation of overblown heroes and mythical uber-panzers. If I edge the true believers from the stage I am satisfied.

[alecsandros]

What can you expect from a fan-boy. Every time you point out the truth to them they retreat into insult and denial.

If you were a little bit less of a hypocrite, you would see this is exactly your behavior.

To end the inflation of the reputation of overblown heroes and mythical uber-panzers. If I edge the true believers from the stage I am satisfied.

Watch out Glanz, Hart, and the rest! Here comes Mkenny! He knows everything there is to know about everything, and he's persistent as hell. More peristent than a telemarketer!

I can't wait for his books to hit the shelves! They will undoubtedly re-aling the entire system of values for the entire world war!
It will be glorious.

[mkenny]

Sneak preview of the cover for my new book.

[Matrose71]

I have a few questions.

I know only the facts of my sources from the battle of Villers Bocage and the morning attack from Wittman.

To my sources the 22nd Armoured Brigade group suffered all day long around 217 men killed, lost around of 27 tanks and a lot of armored vehicles.
11-12 Tanks goes to Wittman

The german have on the morning attack only 6 Tiger Tanks and a few disperse infantry men. There were no closed intact infantry unit in the morning battle on the german side. All day long the german had 15 Panzer IV and 6-8 Tigertanks and few supply und repair units that were used as infantry.

So my question to you mkenny is, why the heck the 22nd Armoured Brigade group couldn't brake through this little german unit to go in the flank and the back of the Panzer Lehr? This was one great chance and you will tell me the whole 22nd Armoured Brigade have not the ability to break through this little group of defender? With only the lost of 8 Tanks in the morning? To me it is new that the 7th tank division is so lame in fight!?

25 British tanks lost and at least 6 Tigers (see Schneider) might give you 4:1 but that means you ignore the Pz IV's lost.
They knock it down to 2:1

This statement is bullshit, sorry for that but all german tanks accept one Tiger and one Panzer IV were destroyed from 6 pd Guns and not from tanks.
On the german side was no single anti tank gun in action so all destroyed tanks go to the german tanks.

[mkenny]

.

To my sources the 22nd Armoured Brigade group suffered all day long around 217 men killed, lost around of 27 tanks and a lot of armored vehicles.
11-12 Tanks goes to Wittman

Incorrect. The dead for June 13th were 36.
16 Infantry
18 Tank crews
2 Artillerymen.

So my question to you mkenny is, why the heck the 22nd Armoured Brigade group couldn't brake through this little german unit to go in the flank and the back of the Panzer Lehr? This was one great chance and you will tell me the whole 22nd Armoured Brigade have not the ability to break through this little group of defender? With only the lost of 8 Tanks in the morning? To me it is new that the 7th tank division is so lame in fight!?

4th CLY got caught out by Wittmann's first attack. They were defeated in the Wittmann attack.
Later when the rest of SS 101 and elements of Lehr then attacked into the town they were defeated. They lost at least 5 Tigers and several Pz IV, did not manage to destroy a single British tanks and retreated from the town.
The second battle was a British victory.

This statement is bullshit, sorry for that but all german tanks accept one Tiger and one Panzer IV were destroyed from 6 pd Guns and not from tanks.

I am afraid the bullshit is your fictional account. There are several well known accounts from the British tank crews who knocked out the Tigers. Try Bill Cotton for starters.
'E' for effort but your research leaves a lot to be desired.

[Matrose71]

Incorrect. The dead for June 13th were 36.

"217 men killed, wounded, and missing that day, a large proportion of whom were taken prisoner when the Germans cut off and captured the force on Point 213°.
Ok i have count all.

Later when the rest of SS 101 and elements of Lehr then attacked into the town they were defeated. They lost at least 5 Tigers and several Pz IV, did not manage to destroy a single British tanks and retreated from the town.
The second battle was a British victory.

Lol yes 15 Panzer IV the 6-8 Tiger tanks and the few supply und repair units that were used as infantry. This was all on the german side mixed as SS 101 and elements of Lehr. And they have attacked.
The british ambition was to brake through and attack the panzer lehr in the flank and the back. Ok if this is a victory for you from a whole Brigade then we have other opinions about victories.

I am afraid the bullshit is your fictional account. There are several well known accounts from the British tank crews who knocked out the Tigers. Try Bill Cotton for starters.

The german lost five Tigers and 4 Panzer IV as total losts.
Sergeant Bramall knocked out a a Panzer IV with a Firefly and Corporal Horne a Tiger with a Cromwell. That were the only victories of british tank crews.
The rest goes to the 6 pd Guns and one Tiger to the infantry with a PIAT

[mkenny]

"217 men killed, wounded, and missing that day, a large proportion of whom were taken prisoner when the Germans cut off and captured the force on Point 213°.
Ok i have count all.

Still too high. Note your source (Wiki) tells you about these numbers
Contradictory sources make exact casualty figures for 13 June difficult to establish

yes 15 Panzer IV the 6-8 Tiger tanks and the few supply und repair units that were used as infantry. This was all on the german side mixed as SS 101 and elements of Lehr. And they have attacked.
The british ambition was to brake through and attack the panzer lehr in the flank and the back. Ok if this is a victory for you from a whole Brigade then we have other opinions about victories.

They were attacked and the battered the Tigers into retreating. Live with it.
As you keep saying it was a whole Brigade perhaps you could inform us as to the actions against SS 101 and Lehr by 1st RTR and 5th RTR. These are the other 2 Tank Regiments in 22nd Armoured Brigade and we have it from you that they were in action. Exactly where was that?
It was 1 Armoured Regiment, 4th CLY. I know fan-boys like to inflate British numbers whilst undercounting German numbers but really.......................

Sergeant Bramall knocked out a a Panzer IV with a Firefly and Corporal Horne a Tiger with a Cromwell. That were the only victories of british tank crews.
The rest goes to the 6 pd Guns and one Tiger to the infantry with a PIAT

I suggest you upgrade from Wiki to proper sources.

[Matrose71]

Hey you are the one that tell us about "german myths".
If you call the June 13 1944 and the Battle of Villers Bocage a british victory with the ambition to attack the panzer lehr in the flank and back then do it.
I can live with this statement,the relative strength of the involved units are posted and performance of the tank crews too, so every intersted reader can built his own opinion.

But for me it is realy funny to call this day a british victory but i can live with that........

Edit: Sorry I forget this

They were attacked and the battered the Tigers into retreating.

When or at which time british tanks drove an attack? You will realy tell us the british tanks attacks the german defenders or tank units out of Villers Bocage? You want to joke? The only attack on this day comes from the german tank crews.

Edit:

I suggest you upgrade from Wiki to proper sources

Why? There is the wiki from germany and the english wiki plus Paul Carell " Sie kommen"
I have 3 sources with the nearly same outcomming.
And absolutly the same outcomming on british tank crew performances.
Why should i consult other sources?
For me this was a very great chance for the british brigade but was retreated from a very small german action disperse unit.
That says all!
Without the attack from Wittman at the morning battle the whole outcome is debatable. So I think Wittman did a very good job. Point.
Live with that..............

[Karl Heidenreich]

[mkenny]

I can live with this statement,the relative strength of the involved units are posted and performance of the tank crews too, so every intersted reader can built his own opinion.

Dead in the one British Armoured Regiment involved: 12
Dead tank crew in SS 101: 10
Dead tank crew in Lehr: ?
Dead in 2nd Pz. Division: ?

When or at which time british tanks drove an attack?

Mobius with 1st kp of sSS PzAbt 101 and Pz lehr attacked Villers after Wittmann was knocked out. .
He was repulsed with the loss of 5 Tigers and an unknown number of Pz IV's from Lehr.
No British tanks were lost in this second disastrous attack by 1/SS 101 and Pz lehr.

Seems pretty straightforward. Which bit of an attack, a defeat and a retreat do you not understand?

[mkenny]

Why? There is the wiki from germany and the english wiki plus Paul Carell " Sie kommen"
I have 3 sources with the nearly same outcomming.

Would that be the paul Carrel who wrote:

"The British chroniclers claim their forces destroyed seven Tigers. They obviously counted several elderly Panzer IV's which were in Villers Bocage, as Tigers"

It seems Carell has credibility problems.

He also wrote of 4th CLY:

"15 officers and 176 men were dead

I make that 191 dead when the actual number was 12.
Great sources you have there!

[alecsandros]

What was the tactical situation during the second attack? In terms of terrain, effective combat strength and unit placement ?