Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Non-naval discussions about the Second World War. Military leaders, campaigns, weapons, etc.
Bgile
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by Bgile »

I've always been willing to accept that Germany made many things of technically superior quality to the same type of thing made by the allies. It was always the tradition of German industry to make fewer, more complex and usually, but not always, better things. I've also accepted that Germans were better soldiers and better fliers as a group early in the war.

What I won't accept is the apparent believe of some that if it's German it must obviously be better, and to ignore any evidence to the contrary. This flies in the face of the fact that late war combat casualties, reduced training time and the use of teenagers and old men reduced the effectiveness of German formations, and allied soldiers became veterans with many months of combat experience. German factories were sometimes forced to use slave labor, and this had an effect on the quality of the output.
mkenny
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by mkenny »

VeenenbergR wrote:Or the gunner on the Bismarck which blew up 42.000 tons of Hood with ONE shell?
One must ask why, with such superior ships, superior guns and superior sailors, the Germans did not fire just one of these super shells from each super gun on the super Battleship at each British ship.
Why not just send the Bismark into Scapa Flow and with her one-shell one-hit guns she could sink the entire Royal Navy in an afternoon.
boredatwork
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by boredatwork »

I would speculate the navy only got enough material to make 1 shell... the rest went into Tiger tanks.
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by VeenenbergR »

mkenny wrote:
One must ask why, with such superior ships, superior guns and superior sailors, the Germans did not fire just one of these super shells from each super gun on the super Battleship at each British ship.
Why not just send the Bismark into Scapa Flow and with her one-shell one-hit guns she could sink the entire Royal Navy in an afternoon.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Man, are you still thinking I am serious? Your exagerations make me only laugh about the fact that I can so easily provoke you ........

Come on mkenny, what do YOU think of the host of so many German Ace's? Was it the superior German tactical training? The German fanatism? The Übermensch ideology? The famous German fine precision weapons? Or a combination of this all?
VeenenbergR
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by VeenenbergR »

to boredatwork: perhaps the energy flows to the things people believe in ...... the Germans didn't have real faith in their ships(how well they, in contrary to their mistrust, performed at Jutland), but more in their "land" Teutonic Knights...... the Tiger and Panther tanks.

Strange enough the "new" Luftwaffe performed also quite well.......like their advanced rocket technology. Nowadays Germany does not have any edge in aerial weaponry..... nor rocket technology. It all passed to the victorious Allies: the US and USSR.
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RF
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by RF »

Bgile wrote: What I won't accept is the apparent believe of some that if it's German it must obviously be better, and to ignore any evidence to the contrary.
As evidenced post-war in the Trabant and the Wartburg. Shining examples of DDR state of the art technology.
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RF
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by RF »

VeenenbergR wrote:

Nowadays Germany does not have any edge in aerial weaponry..... nor rocket technology. It all passed to the victorious Allies: the US and USSR.
That is because today Germany is not a militaristic society or aggressive world power. Instead it has an edge in technology for more peaceful purposes, and until last year was the world's biggest exporter of manufactured goods. And the Germans have a very much higher standard of living as a result, far better than could have been achieved under a victorious Third Riech, which would have been left with the economic problems that eventually undid apartheid in South Africa.
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Bgile
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by Bgile »

RF wrote:
VeenenbergR wrote:

Nowadays Germany does not have any edge in aerial weaponry..... nor rocket technology. It all passed to the victorious Allies: the US and USSR.
That is because today Germany is not a militaristic society or aggressive world power.
I don't think that is the reason they don't try to make good aerial weapons or rocketry. As the German fans have pointed out, Germany still makes some really good military equipment. They simply can't afford to try to produce all types of military equipment when there is good stuff available elsewhere.
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RF
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by RF »

I think your last sentance Bgile is certainly true, but the German political leadership and commercial bigwigs are certainly concious of the effects politically of Germany building a large armaments industry. Moreover the European Union would never permit it, as the other leading European countries don't want a military comeback in the Fatherland. Indeed one of the reasons for setting up the EU originally was to contain Germany as a future military power, because of its past.
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by VeenenbergR »

Agreed. But IF there will be need to military power again in the future.....the Germans will be there again!!!!
They are born warriors as the Roman legions in 9 AD experienced to their dismay!

Perhaps about 100 years from now there will be another World Order (dominated by the FAR EAST) with Germany as a reborn mainstay in military technology again, when the USA will be a second rate nation (or have fallen apart).

The tristesse is that Germany anno 1930 with all its own jews still board was scientifically a leading nation, with physics as THE leading nation!
Hitler all squandered his rich, powerfull and strong nation with all its wonderfull barock and neo-architecture......the ultimate metropolis: Berlin of the thirties.
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by mkenny »

RF wrote: Indeed one of the reasons for setting up the EU originally was to contain Germany as a future military power, because of its past.
Not specificaly Germany but to bind ALL the countries so closely economicaly that any future war bewtween them would be impossible. That reason alone would be enough to say the EEC is a success.
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RF
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by RF »

VeenenbergR wrote: Perhaps about 100 years from now there will be another World Order (dominated by the FAR EAST) with Germany as a reborn mainstay in military technology again, when the USA will be a second rate nation (or have fallen apart).
I don't think the USA will fall apart or become a second rate nation. It may well become more Hispanic but that doesn't mean any the less American. An Asian New World Order - maybe, but unlikely to completely dominate the World. We shall see.
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RF
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by RF »

mkenny wrote:
Not specificaly Germany but to bind ALL the countries so closely economicaly that any future war bewtween them would be impossible. That reason alone would be enough to say the EEC is a success.
I don't think so. War between the original six countries of the EEC was the least likely scenario after 1945. Of much greater likelihood
was war between the US and USSR, between NATO and the Warsaw Pact, the Cold War was totally irrelevant to the EEC as at that time it didn't have its own military capability. The period of the EEC featured Europe as the most heavily armed continent ever on this planet.

EU enthusiasts in their fantasy world like to pretend that the EEC was responsible for the peace in Europe after 1945. In fact it was the Balance of Terror, known as MAD, that really kept the peace. The Eurocentric ethnic and territorial conflicts were still there, below the surface, and in the case of Northern Ireland, above it. To those the EEC was an utter irrelevance.
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RF
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by RF »

VeenenbergR wrote:The tristesse is that Germany anno 1930 with all its own jews still board was scientifically a leading nation, with physics as THE leading nation!
Hitler all squandered his rich, powerfull and strong nation with all its wonderfull barock and neo-architecture.......
Germany was a world leader in science and education, but with a very insular view that in part enabled the nazies to come to power. The whole problem of totalitarian ideology is its holistic nature, it runs contrary to science and true understanding, it is ultimately self-defeating.
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mkenny
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by mkenny »

RF wrote:
I don't think so. War between the original six countries of the EEC was the least likely scenario after 1945.
Look at the previous 100 years. How many wars in Europe?


RF wrote:EU enthusiasts in their fantasy world like to pretend that the EEC was responsible for the peace in Europe after 1945.
Much like flag-waving little Englanders can never accept it on any terms.
RF wrote: In fact it was the Balance of Terror, known as MAD, that really kept the peace. The Eurocentric ethnic and territorial conflicts were still there, below the surface, and in the case of Northern Ireland, above it. To those the EEC was an utter irrelevance.
EEC money played a big part in Irelands prosperity and that had an effect on cross border relations.
There is no possibility of France and German ever coming to blows in the foreseeable future. The EEC was a Franco-German way of solving their old problem. Without the backing of one of these powers none of the 'minor' nations can start a fight with another. Both countries are the driving force in Europe and as such have moulded it to suit their interests. Britain still believes she is a world power and to fulfill this fantasy plays the role of troublemaker in Europe and has completely sold her Armed Forces to do the bidding of the USA.
The current debacle in Afghanistan shows the extent of this delusion.
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