Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

[alecsandros]

Hello, VeenenbergR,

My reply with 1,1 million German casualties at Kursk was intended to remind you that some russian sources (most likely those written before the USSR collapsed) are not trust-worthy. There could be contemporary writers who might be good though...

As for the air losses throughout the war, I don't have the knowledge to reply in any way. I know that there are various statistics floating around, but I don't know if a hollistic (and correct) approach exists today (which could clearly differentiate between fighters destroyed in air combat and on ground assault, for instance...)

Alex

[boredatwork]

[...]

So the Luftwaffe and German Flak downed 100.000 enemy planes, losing themselves 17.000 fighters of all types, with enemy losses in damaged planes in the order of 200.000.

[...]

The Luftwaffe and the Panzerwaffe were the most efficient instruments of the whole German army[...]

If you're using those number to compare efficiency you do a diservice to the allied airmen by not footnoting the numbers to acknowledge that for most of the war the luftwaffe was fighting defensively over it's own territory. Heavily damaged German fighters could break off the fight and immediately dive for the nearest airfield where they could be repaired and not count as "lost". Allied planes on the otherhand, even lightly damaged ones, had hours of flight to make the nearest friendly airfield and many that might have been saved had the fight happened over allied territory were lost.

In the same way it would do a diservice to the efficiency and skill of the Luftwaffe by comparing it's losses to those of the RAF in the BoB without acknowledging the homefield advandtages the later enjoyed.

[Bgile]

Many of the highest scoring German pilots were shot down several times during the war.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

Many of the highest scoring German pilots were shot down several times during the war.

Profesional risk when you are fighter pilot. That could (and would) apply also to US airmen like Thomas McGuire, for example No.2 top US ace, Gabby Gabreski, Pappy Boyington, Robert S. Johnson, etc. etc. etc. (including, obviously, George Bush Senior). Which is remarkable, specially with the small amount of missions they were allowed to fly.

I discovered that Richard Bong, for instance, made his kills not against the Germans but against the Japanese.


Best regards,

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

Many of the highest scoring German pilots were shot down several times during the war

Which, by the way, was not the case of Eric Hartman. Of the 14 times he was forced to crash land not a single one was due to enemy fire but from debris of the planes he had shot down or mechanical malfunctions.

Also, and this is interesting, Hartman started his fighter pilot carreer in 1942. If that´s so he started late and at the same time many of the US pilots did.

[Bgile]

Bgile:

Many of the highest scoring German pilots were shot down several times during the war

Which, by the way, was not the case of Eric Hartman. Of the 14 times he was forced to crash land not a single one was due to enemy fire but from debris of the planes he had shot down or mechanical malfunctions.

Also, and this is interesting, Hartman started his fighter pilot carreer in 1942. If that´s so he started late and at the same time many of the US pilots did.

I know at least once he bailed out when he ran out of fuel trying to stay alive while being shot at by Mustangs. They could have killed him in his chute but declined to do so.

[VeenenbergR]

Bgile: please do analyse the stats of DRK and VDK for the West (my list).

It will show you that the Germans lost 780.000 soldiers KIA (all arms) fighting all other countries and armies except for the Soviets.
In addition they lost 150.000 soldiers as POW (most by the Yugoslavs, then the French, then Poles, then Tjechs and relative few by US and Britain/Commonwealth).

Of those 780.000 about 700.000 were lost fighting the US, Britain/Commonwealth and French. The reminder was lost against Poles, Dutch, Norwegians, Belgians, Greek, Yugoslav & resistence groups.

As seen the US lost about 170.000 battle KIA against this gross loss total, the French about the same number 170-200.000 (not counting VIchy dead). Not clear if the Maquis is in this total.
POW dead are excluded.
The Brit/Commonwealth lost 580.000 but this is all (also in the East).

Now the accidents may be excluded/included in the totals, which must be cleared to be able to make a fair comparance.

Rob

[VeenenbergR]

Bgile.

On Page 37:

Losses KIA Germans: West + Rest (all other minor allies) except for the Soviets: 780.000 KIA & 150.000 died as POW (most by hands of French/yugoslavs, then Poles/Tjechs, then USA, Brit/Commonw.)

Of these 100.000 were KIA in the fighting the Poles, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, Yugoslavs and Greek (1939-1945) and all resistance groups (yugoslavs, French, Poles, Slovaks)

The remainder (680.000) was killed in the air (30.000?), on the seas (100.000) and on land (550.00) against the USA, Brit/Commonw, Free Poles and French, included are those killed by accidents.

To area/period:
Norway 40: 2000 by hands of the Brit./French?
France 40: 46.000+;
BOB: 2000 (air)
Greece/Crete: 5000 by hands of the Brit/commonw.
North Africa: 16.000 by USA and Brit/commonw.
Italy 43-45: 105.000 by USA and Brit/commonw.(including from air bombardments, air battles)
Greece/dodecanes '43: 1.500
France 44/45: 140.000 by USA and Brit/commonw & Free French (including from air bombardments, air battles)
Belgium: 44/45: 40.000 by USA and Brit/commonw.(including from air bombardments, air battles)
Netherlands: 44/45: 30.000 by USA and Brit/commonw.(including from air bombardments, air battles)
Luxemburg: 44/45: 10.000 by USA and Brit/commonw.
Germany: 44/45: 100-120.000 by USA and Brit/commonw. & Free French (including from air bombardments, air battles)
Seas: 39-45: 100.000 by USA and Brit/commonw.

Losses French: 217.000 excluding POW dead. Resistance not included either.Causes of accidents (air) not included. Vichy dead must be not included in this total.
Losses USA: 170.000 excluding POW dead. Causes of other dead not incuded. Causes of accidents (air) not included.
Losses Brit/Commonw: 580.000 for EAST (200.000?) and WEST (380.000?) excluding POW dead. Causes of other dead not incuded. Causes of accidents (air) not included.
So the last total must be split for WEST and EAST.

On the first sight the KIA of both parties are about EQUAL: 650.000; but then the Italians have to be added to the Axis side too (except for their East Front dead and POW dead) and
all other Allied countries figting with the Western Allies.

[Bgile]

Hmmm ... interesting breakdown. Does your total add up the the 4.2M the German army lost in WW2? I thought 1.5M were lost in the west. Is that the total you have? If they only lost 780,000 then they lost an additional 1.5M - .78M = 720,000 against the Russians?

[VeenenbergR]

Bgile. no they could never have lost 1,5 million in the West.....think of 2 months Normandy, the pocket battle of Falaise and the near 68.000 KIA the Germans lost insofar (Allies insofar about 62.000). Then try to think what happened next.....there was a lul in the fighting during the pursuit to the German border, which intensified again therafter. The battle in the West had a duration of 11 months. With a simple equotation the Germans lost about max 5 1/2 x 68.000 = 350.000 KIA with some addditions: 107.000 KIA in Italy, 16.000 KIA in North Africa, 46.000 in France '40. Adding it all together it is nearer 1/2 million than 1,5 million.
Hope you can follow me.

Yes so your conclusion is right.......those Russians again. But the German Army lost not 4,2 million in battle but: 5,3 million - 0,5 million of diseases and 1.425.000 as POW's so they lost 3.375.000 soldiers in battle of which 231.000 were armed civilians (Volkssturm). If you subtract that the Wehrmacht lost 3.144.000 KIA in battle (including Polizei and HJ boys).

Against the Soviets 2.507.000 , against all others 637.000 (sea, land and air)

[Bgile]

Also, and this is interesting, Hartman started his fighter pilot carreer in 1942. If that´s so he started late and at the same time many of the US pilots did.

Yes, he began training in Oct 1940 and didn't report to his first unit until Oct 1942. In the first month he destroyed two Me-109's due to his own inexperience. His first kill was in November and his 2nd kill was in Feb '42, four months after becoming a combat pilot. If he had been under the same combat time restrictions as US pilots his kill total would have been less than many of the US aces.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

es, he began training in Oct 1940 and didn't report to his first unit until Oct 1942. In the first month he destroyed two Me-109's due to his own inexperience. His first kill was in November and his 2nd kill was in Feb '42, four months after becoming a combat pilot. If he had been under the same combat time restrictions as US pilots his kill total would have been less than many of the US aces.

But instead he kept going on to become the all ace of aces of all the world wars. That`s what happens when you are fighting numerical superior forces, you have to test the steel of the men to the last. The US have the resources to send home their boys after a substancial tour of duty, a luxury Germany didn`t had. I do imagine that the US boys were up to that, too, if the necesity arrives, which was obviously not the case in WWII, at least for them as it was for the Britons, the Soviets and, obviously the Germans.

[Karl Heidenreich]

But of course, Hartman was not alone as top ace. The Germans produced, at least, the first 100 top air aces of the world war followed by Finish, Imperial Japanese, Soviets (which were the "black sheep" allies in what regards individual skills (¿¿¿????)), Romanian, Croatian, and only after all of them (more than a hundred) then the US Air Forces appeared with Richard Bong.

We can produced high end explanations for one guy, or two, or three or a dozen (two dozen or four dozens), but not for a bunch that could fill whole squadrons. The questions stand, whatsoever, if the situation would be reversed the tallies would been questioned as they did here and now? Honestly: don´t think so.

As for the Soviets, I think that the top rifle marksman of World War Two was Vasilly Zaitsev (He killed 225 soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht and other Axis armies, including 11 enemy snipers.) Of course he was in Stalingrad where he had the chance of killing so much enemy soldiers, chance other sniper didn`t have... but that`s what happens when you are figthing in the toughter front of the war of wars.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Using the wikipedia list for the top Air Aces of World War II I imported to an Excel sheet and made an easy count:

1. The top first WWII air aces from (1) Eric Hartmann until (108) Gutav Rodel were all Luftwaffe... one hundred and eight! Not one nor thirty, more than a hundred!
2. No. 109 was Finish, Juutilainen, IlmariIlmari.
3. Two more guys (110 and 111) were Luftwaffe
4. No. 112 was Japanese, Nishizawa.
5. From No. 113 to 118 Luftwaffe
6. No. 119 is another Japanese, Iwamoto.
7. No. 124 was Finish: Wind, Hans. Before him all Germans.
8. Between 124 and 126, Germans.
9. No. 126, Japanese: Sugita, Shoichi
10. No. 133, Japanese: the famous Sakai, Saburo. Before him all Germans.
11. No. 137 is Soviet: Kozhedub, IvanIvan. Before him all Germans.
12. No. 146 is also Soviet: Pokryshkin, Aleksandr Ivanovich. All in between German.

We can follow up with Romanians, Croatians, RAF, Soviets, Japanese, etc. until we got spot No. 195: Richard Bong with 40 kills.

I was also thinking in the Memphis Belle. Twenty five missions and the crew got themselves a ticket home. Another crew with another B-17 will replace them. What about the Messerschmidt or Focke Wulf guys that had to scramble every time Spaatz or Bomber Harris decided to blow an urban area sky high? Those guys went on and on until they got killed (no limited amount of missions) or went into a PoW camp after the war. How many of them were high aces but never lived to tell us about that because, as evil Germans, their story is no worth to appear in Air Aces or Dog Fights or whatever of History Channel, where we are only allowed to see the story of the bottom part of the list (195 an lower) of aces of the world?

If this sounds angry it is, because it upsets me how revisionism tries to underrate everything that cames from the German side!

[Bgile]

Using the wikipedia list for the top Air Aces of World War II I imported to an Excel sheet and made an easy count:

1. The top first WWII air aces from (1) Eric Hartmann until (108) Gutav Rodel were all Luftwaffe... one hundred and eight! Not one nor thirty, more than a hundred!
2. No. 109 was Finish, Juutilainen, IlmariIlmari.
3. Two more guys (110 and 111) were Luftwaffe
4. No. 112 was Japanese, Nishizawa.
5. From No. 113 to 118 Luftwaffe
6. No. 119 is another Japanese, Iwamoto.
7. No. 124 was Finish: Wind, Hans. Before him all Germans.
8. Between 124 and 126, Germans.
9. No. 126, Japanese: Sugita, Shoichi
10. No. 133, Japanese: the famous Sakai, Saburo. Before him all Germans.
11. No. 137 is Soviet: Kozhedub, IvanIvan. Before him all Germans.
12. No. 146 is also Soviet: Pokryshkin, Aleksandr Ivanovich. All in between German.

We can follow up with Romanians, Croatians, RAF, Soviets, Japanese, etc. until we got spot No. 195: Richard Bong with 40 kills.

I was also thinking in the Memphis Belle. Twenty five missions and the crew got themselves a ticket home. Another crew with another B-17 will replace them. What about the Messerschmidt or Focke Wulf guys that had to scramble every time Spaatz or Bomber Harris decided to blow an urban area sky high? Those guys went on and on until they got killed (no limited amount of missions) or went into a PoW camp after the war. How many of them were high aces but never lived to tell us about that because, as evil Germans, their story is no worth to appear in Air Aces or Dog Fights or whatever of History Channel, where we are only allowed to see the story of the bottom part of the list (195 an lower) of aces of the world?

If this sounds angry it is, because it upsets me how revisionism tries to underrate everything that cames from the German side!

A high percentage of the US heavy bomber crews didn't make it home, Karl. They went up and played target for the Luftwaffe every day. Memphis Belle is celebrated because that aircraft's crew managed to survive all their missions. That made it special.

The highest scoring ace of the Vietnam War was North Vietnamese. Probably the top 10 were. I think the top US ace had about six or seven kills. Do you think this means the NVA were better fliers than the USAF and USN fliers? I don't. It's because they were in a target rich environment where they mostly attacked guys who were trying to drop bombs and hadn't ever even seen an NVA aircraft. They avoided fighting US fighters when possible.