Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

[VeenenbergR]

Alecsandros. David Newton wrote a very interesting book about the Eastfront. A chapter was devoted to Kursk and the employment of 11th Amee corps (3 divisions) near Belgorod. This corps lost on the average about 3000 men each in 12 days fighting. Losses were particular heavy in the vulnerable infrantry divisions: vulnerable to constant heavy artillery fire and air to ground attacks.
If these divisions lost somewhat above the average with 30 divisions loosing the same number losses were AT MOST 90.000 for the germans (of which 1/5 was killed and 4/5 wounded with few MIA), but German sources state 58.000 losses (= KIA, MIA and WIA) and Glantz is somewhere in between with probably 78.000.

So Soviet claims of 900.000 KIA are totally beyond any imagination, where KIA were at most 16.000 for those 12 days.

I read in Piekalkiewicz book about Stalingrad that the Germans lost about 16.000 dead in taking most of the city during the first 8 weeks of fighting IN Stalingrad (14 september to 1 november), with total losses near 75.000 for all 10-12 divisions fighting for the city. All divisions started at 80% of strength (ca 12.000 men) with each taking casualties in the order of 6.000 men the remaining losses in special attack pioneer batalions (most with up to 80% losses!). Replacements and returned light wounded arrived with an average of 2500 per division. At 19 november the German divisions in Stalingrad were down to about 8.500 men. Then the Soviets encircled 6th Army with 21 divisions X 8.500 men each (average strength) and 1 Flak division with 6500 men = 185.000 men. There were then also about 100 separate batalions with 300 men each = 30.000 men. Total Germans inside the pocket: 215.000. From many sources is known that a relative large group of Germans of 6th Army were pushed outside the encirclement during the encirlement operation at the end of november 1942. Some even say this may be: 50,000 soldiers were brushed aside outside the pocket (Wikipedia).
This means that ONLY 175.000 were inside of which 35.000 (not 42.000) were flown out. Remaining were 140.000. Known is that about a same number of Germans died in the defense (= 16.000) and again a same number died of cold, suicide. So 108.000 were there to surrender and exact this number is given as total number of German POW's
If it is true that 12.000 men remained back to fight on the initial strength was about 12.000 more OR 12.000 of those brushed aside were already outside the encirclement. I think the latter situation was the case.
This means that Soviet claims of German death (KIA) are grossly overstatet when they claim hundreds of thousands were KIA in the Stalingrad defense and the recapture of the city. That is just propaganda!!!

This example is just there to show HOW intense the fighting for Kursk really was during only barely 2 weeks, with a 3 times larger force than committed at Stalingrad BUT with exactly the same number of casualties.

The the second battle for Sevastopol the German army was comparable to that of that which was attacking Stalingrad, but time span was shorter and the city of Sevastopol much smaller. Still German casualties were relatively high with half that of the Stalingrad casualties (34.000?).

[VeenenbergR]

German burried to area ( KIA, died of wounds, died as POW) according to the DRK amd VDK.

WEST+SOUTH

Norway Rest (1940: 5000 ; 1941-1945: 5000; after 1945: 1500 because of mine-clearing operations)
Norway Total: 11.500

Netherlands IJsselsteyn (1940: 2000 and 1944/45: 30.000; after 1945: few)
Netherlands total: 32.000

Belgium: 38.500 Lommel en 6.800 in Recogne (1940: 3500; 1944/45: 35.000)
Belgium total: 46.000

Luxemburg: Sandweiler 1944/45: 11.000

Greece: Crete: 5500 (4000 from air/sea landings in May 1941)
Other Islands: few
Mainland: 10.000
Total Greece: 15.500

North-Africa: 16.500

Italy: 107.000 1943-1945

France: 240.000 (88.000 in Normandy including those died there 1940-1945 and POW's after 1945). Died as POW's a fairly "large" number (60.000?)

Yugoslavia: 55.800 with 40.000 unaccounted for (MIA) after 1945!!! Died as POW's???

Albania: 3600
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EAST & WEST

Germany (nowadays territory): > 1.575.000 including at least 500.000 died of disseases, wounds, Volkssturm, Polizei, Hitlerjugend
- Xanten/Kleve, Bitburg, Rheinwiesenlager, Dachau, Seelow, Berlin, Halbe
- At least 200-250.000 probably more died of wounds, of bombardments, of starvation in POW camps....all from 1944/ 45 and after 1945

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EAST

Former area of the Soviet Union : 2,200.000 (of which 1,200.000 as POW) !!!! This is the final answer on the missing (to this total must be added the 75.000 from Moldavia) = 1.275.000
- petsamo 12.000, Salla: 8000 = Karelia: 20.000
- Ukraine: 400.000
- white Russia: 250.000
- Estonia: 35.000
- Latvia: 100.000
- Lituania: 20.000
- Russia (including East part of East Prussia with Volkssturm, Polizei, Hitlerjugend): rest = 1.375.000

Moldavia: 150.000 KIA + MIA from august/sept 1944 + MIA) (half of them Died as POW's?) This was a tragic end!!

Rumania: 38.000 from 1944/45

Bulgaria: 1800 (sept 1944)

Hungaria: 54.000 all from 1944/45.

Poland 468.000;(including Galicia, Pommerania, Silesia, West East-Prussia, Danzig, Brandenburg): 450.000 from 1944/45 and in POW-camps after 1945.
- Volkssturm, Polizei, Hitlerjugend

Österreich/ austria: 45.000 (all in 1945)

Tjecho-slavakia 178.000 all from 1944/45
- Tjechia = 143.000 + Slovakia = 35.000

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grand total: 5.300.000 (the number of Rüderiger Overmans!!!)


Now gentleman we can compute the dead against the Western Allies, other countries and Soviets to a fairly accurate number.........

[VeenenbergR]

Total computation:

Germany: 500.000 less all causes except war = 1.075.000: 1/3 attributed to the West; 2/3 to the East

West + Rest (all other minor allies): 780.000 KIA & 150.000 died as POW

East: 2.508.000* & 1.275.000 died as POW
* = including 231.000 Volkssturm (former computed as civilian casualties)

KIA = 3.288.000
died as POW = 1.425.000
died of disseases & other causes = 500.000

So Krivosheev can tell me what he want, but these numbers (the fallen to area) are very close to the truth.

[Karl Heidenreich]

VeenenbergR:



I think that you nail it good! Must say it has been a great effort and us, the forum members, should be gratefull that someone thinks as much of us as to dedicate himself in an task like this.

And they fit good with Overmans, which says a lot. Pretty impressive. I have always thought that war casualties, specially German or Soviet ones, were pretty much an academic topic, but you have proved me wrong.

It is important to see the relation of losses from one front (East) to the other one (West).

Warmest regards,

[VeenenbergR]

Hi Karl,

Nice that you appreciated my effort, always wanted to know "The truth" about the German casualties.

And by the way it is a sound base for the comparances Soviet versus German. We know now that each Soviet claim of German KIA > 2.5 million is pure nonsense!!!
The Soviets versus the Germans: the Soviets lost about 9 million troops alone against the Germans, not including the Soviet POW's wich perished in German camps (at least DOUBLE the German amount).
Say that the Germans lost 50.000 KIA against their former Allies: the Rumanians, Bulgarians and Poles. The ratio on the battlefield is then 2,450.000 against 9 million or 1: 3,65

Then the comparances to the Western Allied forces: the Germans lost some 0,7 million against them all (on the seas alone about 125.000, in the air about 40.000 and on land about 535.000)
If these totals are compared to the Western Allies (USA, Brittish, Commonwealth, French, Free French, French colonial troops, Polish & Italian Allied units) these forces lost more troops: about
1,1 million soldiers. This ratio is then 2: 3.

There are 3 uncertainties to analyse further:

- the 1.575.000 Germans burried al over the Bundesrepublik: what causes them to die, where they transferred from other countries to the BRD?
Ok some 25.000 are burried near Halbe but all those others??? A huge uncertainty and gap is here.
There was some though fighting for the Rhine and all other heavy battles occurred in and around Berlin. But if you really sum those KIA including
the military dead because of the air bombardments then I never come higher than 200.000.

- The death causes in the case of Yugoslavia: Carell has a remark on the Germans burried in former Yugoslavia: he is pretty sure that 80.000 of them died as POW's......
that leaves pretty few (some 15.000) burried as KIA!!! Is that realistic?

- The French starved pretty many German POW's: are they included in the 240.000 in France? Why is this such a huge number? What causes them to die or starve?
There were battles in 1940: 46.000 KIA; Normandy: about 70.000 KIA; South of France, Brest, Paris, Mons, Calais, Alsace, Lotharingen, Vosges/ Vogesen battles: but these can never
close the gap. So about 100.000 dead has to be explained: 60.000 as POW's??? and 40.000 died when brought there to recover??? That is pretty much. The Resistance??

[Bgile]

The US Army lost about 318,000 KIA and missing TOTAL, including about 88,000 air force during WWII. This includes losses against Japan, including Bataan and Corregidor.

[VeenenbergR]

Bgile: According to Wikipedia: 416.837. To 1 men precise!!!! What a huge difference with the German losses!!

Total U. S. military deaths in battle and from other causes were 416,837.
The breakout by service is as follows, Army 318,274, Navy 62,614, Marine Corps 24,511, United States Coast Guard 1,917 and United States Merchant Marine 9,521.

Deaths in battle were 292,131.
The breakout by service is as follows, Army 234, 874, Navy 36,950, Marine Corps 19,733, United States Coast Guard 574.
Air Forces losses were 52,173 deaths due to combat and 35,946 from non combat causes.

U.S. Combat Dead by Theater of war - Europe-Atlantic 183,588;
Army ground forces 141,088; United States Army Air Forces 36,461 and Navy/Coast Guard 6,039;
Included in combat deaths are 14,059 POWs in Europe.

Asia-Pacific 108,504; Army ground forces 41,592; United States Army Air Forces 15,694; Navy/Coast Guard 31,485; Marine Corps 19,733.
Included in combat deaths are 12,935 POW's in Asia.

To be more specific: the USA army lost 170.000 men in combat against the Germans (and their Allies like the Italians).
This changes the whole picture of the ratio's to more or less 1:1 !!!
Naturally then the exact German combat casualties in battle have to be assessed on a same basis.

[Karl Heidenreich]

It is important to mention that the US casualties happened when fighting in favorable conditions to them. They had numerical superiority and, very important, air superiority.

Let`s mention, also, that the US units were fighting alonside English and Canadian units against the Germans, so that we cannot isolate the US casualties alone, because they were not fighting in a closed room against the Germans. It has to be Allied casualties vs. Axis casualties per front.

[Byron Angel]

It is important to mention that the US casualties happened when fighting in favorable conditions to them. They had numerical superiority and, very important, air superiority.

..... True in so far as the overall Normandy campaign goes, but not in all cases on all fronts. US forces resisting the Japanese invasion of the Philippines fought under conditions of numerical and air inferiority. In Tunisia control of the air was strongly contested by the Germans at first. And it is arguable to what extent air superiority was useful against the massive Japanese underground defensive systems encountered at Peleliu, Eniwetok, Iwo Jima, Saipan, Okinawa.

Interesting footnote - the amphibious invasion force and supporting fleet committed to the Okinawa landing was actually larger than that deployed by the US as its share of the Normandy landing force.


Byron

[Karl Heidenreich]

Byron;

..... True in so far as the overall Normandy campaign goes, but not in all cases on all fronts. US forces resisting the Japanese invasion of the Philippines fought under conditions of numerical and air inferiority. In Tunisia control of the air was strongly contested by the Germans at first. And it is arguable to what extent air superiority was useful against the massive Japanese underground defensive systems encountered at Peleliu, Eniwetok, Iwo Jima, Saipan, Okinawa.

Correct, of course. I always made the mistake to write in a way that understates things: I was refering to the overall Western European Theater from June 6th on. Of course what happened at the Philipines or in North Africa has to be regarded separately as, in the case of marine divisions landings in the Pacific. As a matter of fact I do believe that the casualty rate in those islands was greater than in the European Theater. But, as I may point out too, is the case with the Germans in overall terms, which is precisely what we have been seeking: what was the conduct of the Eastern Front from the Western one, which is different from the North Africa and Mediterranean ones. All presented differences.

Good clarification, Byron.

[lwd]

..., in the case of marine divisions landings in the Pacific. As a matter of fact I do believe that the casualty rate in those islands was greater than in the European Theater. ....

It should be noted that there were a fair number of army divisions involved in the Pacific as well. One stat that amazed me when I first heard it (and sent me on a search to confirm it) was that 8th AF KIA's exceeded those of the USMC in WWII.

[Bgile]

... The breakout by service is as follows, Army 318,274 ...

It's good to see that you agree with me completely. I said "about 318,000" and you said "318,274".

[Bgile]

To be more specific: the USA army lost 170.000 men in combat against the Germans (and their Allies like the Italians).
This changes the whole picture of the ratio's to more or less 1:1 !!!

I hadn't realized the Germans lost only 170,000 KIA and missing in the west. History continues to be rewritten. Maybe it's because so many of them surrendered. It's really amazing that we managed to win.

[VeenenbergR]

Bgile: I have written that total US KIA in Europe was 170.000 (only!!), and not all alone because of the Germans (but of course most were....).

I think German losses against the US are of a similar order (perhaps slightly more beacuse of the constant air attacks and ever lasting artillery shelling which made them sleepless.......)

Then ONLY 36.000 USA air crews were killed. The Germans however lost according to Christer Bergström ONLY 17.000 fighters in air combat and due to enemy Flak on all fronts (double of that were damaged and unuasable and another that amount were without fuel). Total German fighters: 20.000 Fw190 + 30.000 Me 109 + 8.000 other types (Me110, Me410, He219, Me 262) = 58.000.
This means the Germans lost about 5000 fighter pilots on the Western Front as KIA (but also against the RAF).

Allied losses were roughly 10.000 bombers and fighters each for the USAAF and RAF (40.000 planes also in total) to FLAK and fighters, but without those landing in Switserland (3500 planes) and those lost to accidents (25.000 planes). Note that alone above Holland 10.000 Allied aircraft were shot down....Dutch writer Ab Jansen has written impressive books (8) about the Tag und Nachtjagd above Holland.
Above Germany at least another 20.000 were downed.....
On the Eastfront Soviet losses were about 60.000 planes shot down to all causes. So the Luftwaffe and German Flak downed 100.000 enemy planes, losing themselves 17.000 fighters of all types, with enemy losses in damaged planes in the order of 200.000.

In the air the combat losses were heavily unbalanced but on the ground about 370.000 civilians were lost by the Germans.

The Luftwaffe and the Panzerwaffe were the most efficient instruments of the whole German army....... Yes .....Hermann Göring (and despite this "leader").
They were the true heroes of WWII fighting an enemy at least 3 times as strong, but remaining dangerous until the last seconds of Der Krieg.

[Bgile]

Bgile: I have written that total US KIA in Europe was 170.000 (only!!), and not all alone because of the Germans (but of course most were....).

I think German losses against the US are of a similar order (perhaps slightly more beacuse of the constant air attacks and ever lasting artillery shelling which made them sleepless.......)

How many German KIA were there in the west? I thought about 1,500,000. You are saying that only a small percentage of them were killed by the US Army, which represented the largest force of the western allies? Odd.

And of course US bomber crew losses were terrible ... much worse than the infantry as a percentage.