Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Non-naval discussions about the Second World War. Military leaders, campaigns, weapons, etc.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:08 pm

alecsandros,
Hello Karl!
Well, Wittman's achievements are very difficult to surpass... He was most likely the most successfull tank commander of the second world war.
They are indeed! As a matter of fact his kill ratio against enemy armor (russian or western) was higher than the normal habitual kill ratio favorable to German Units over Allied ones, specially those equipped with the Tiger tank.

I hope the video showed a better perspective of things than selected and repeated material we have been "forced" to see.

Warmest regards,

Karl
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by VeenenbergR » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:31 pm

German "marines" or "naval infantry": were used first in 1941 during the opening moves of Operation Barbarossa to capture the very though defended city of Libau together with IR 505 on the Ostsee.
The strength was 1 batalion. Later they were used in landing at Ösel as part of the XXXXII corps.
In 1943 the Germans used "Küstenjäger" batalions to storm the islands of Cos, Leros and Castelhorizo in the Dodecanese.
In Berlin in april 1945 the Germans used units of the 1st and 3rd Marine Division.

Mckenny: impressive series of knoked out Tigers I. Most (if not all, except a few ) were knocked out in Normandy. Losses were heavy when breaking out of the Falaise pocket, during the counterattacks against the units trying to contain the pocket and the retreat to to the Seine. Some Tigers of Normandy made it to Belgium (Mons), but I believe no single Tiger of 101SS Hvy BN (45 Tigers I), 102SS Hvy Bn (45 Tigers I) and 503 Hvy Bn (33 Tigers I and 12 Porsche Turret Tigers II) survived.
In Normandy were also 45 Tigers II. 5 in Panzer Lehr in Chateaudun all with Porsche Turrets, 2 x 7 sent to 101SS Bn (Prod Turret) and 14 (Prod Turret turret!) sent to the 503rd Bn in addition to the 12 present. Some (2 or 3??) of these were sent back for repairs to Mailly le Camp and Germany and were the only survivors of the Tigers in Normandy. They were later used for 501SS Hvy Bn.

Also these statistics tell that at least 5 + 3 x 45 + 14 + 14 minus 5 escaped/saved = 160+ Tigers were left back in Normandy. Most of them (90%) south of the Seine.
The Tigers committed are about the same as used during Zitadelle but in this instance only a dozen Tigers were lost and the majority could fight on.

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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by mkenny » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:34 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote: They are indeed! As a matter of fact his kill ratio against enemy armor (russian or western) was higher than the normal habitual kill ratio favorable to German Units over Allied ones, specially those equipped with the Tiger tank.
I hope you liked the photos. There are many many more such Tigers in Normandy and I might post them all if I have the time.

The strange thing about Wittmann is that all his kills (i.e every single one of his claimed 130+) were made in a Tiger.
Not a single one comes from his days in other tanks. Seems a bit odd. I wonder why that is?
It is also clear that in the case of Villers Bocage he was awarded credit for 13 more tanks than he even saw that day.
Obviously his 'kill total' is highly suspect and is mainly the invention of the SS propaganda machine.
VeenenbergR wrote:I believe no single Tiger of 101SS Hvy BN (45 Tigers I), 102SS Hvy Bn (45 Tigers I) and 503 Hvy Bn (33 Tigers I and 12 Porsche Turret Tigers II) survived.
This is one from SS 102 that is said to have been photographed back in Germany. It seems to be genuine.



Image

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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by VeenenbergR » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:12 pm

mckenny: THX for this last photograph of the "sole" survivor!! I have somewhere read that only a few made it back, other sources say that the last survivors stranded close to Germany. Possibly NONE of the Tigers I made it actually. The photo is perhaps proof that one did. The surrounding (I am as Geographer and Architecture as my favourite area of interest more or less a specialist in landscapes) COULD be in Germany, or the former area of Germany in Belgium.
According to Schneider 6 Tiger I's were sent as reinforcements to 102 SS in August, but Schneider also indicates that these 6 were transfered to 103SS Bn in August. Don't know where these fought (can read Schneider of coarse).

R.

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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by hammy » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:49 pm

I think thats in Germany , the two boys with their backs to us in light shirts are in Hitler Jugend Uniforms and one of the lads on top of the tank appears to be too - the crew are obviously showing her off to their awed civilian audience .
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by mkenny » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:33 pm

As has been mentioned it is mainly the boy's Uniforms that makes it a pic from Germany.
There is another photograph taken a bit later and by this time the kill rings on the barrel have incresed greatly!

Image

Nice to see some people are genuinely interested in the subject.

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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:37 am

"...Furthermore, against the Soviet and Western Allied production numbers, even a 10:1 kill ratio would not have been sufficient. Some Tiger units did exceed the 10:1 kill ratio, including 13. Kompanie/Panzer-Regiment Großdeutschland (16.67:1), schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 103 (12.82:1) and schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 (13.08:1)..."

- Agte 2006, pp. 103-105.
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by mkenny » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:04 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:"...Furthermore, against the Soviet and Western Allied production numbers, even a 10:1 kill ratio would not have been sufficient. Some Tiger units did exceed the 10:1 kill ratio, including 13. Kompanie/Panzer-Regiment Großdeutschland (16.67:1), schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 103 (12.82:1) and schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 (13.08:1)..."

- Agte 2006, pp. 103-105.
Poor Karl. Confined to the sidelines in a factual discusion he resorts to pathetic regurgitations of Nazi Propaganda handouts. 60 years on and he still believes all the lies.

Which Agte book do you think you are quoting?

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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:52 am

Agte, Patrick (2006). Michael Wittmann and the Waffen SS Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte in WWII, Vol. 1. Mechanicsburg: Stackpole Books. ISBN 9780811733342


mkenny,

I´m was not even making any reference to your perjorative comments but just answering to alecsandros. So, I don´t understand why you insult me. Next time and even if José fires me out of the forum I will answer you in kind.

I don´t need to be a nazi, nor anybody, to have a different, more realistic view of what happened. For sure we are not, nowadays, subjects of nazi propaganda but of those that won.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:02 am

"...On 7 July 1943, a single Tiger tank commanded by SS-Oberscharführer Franz Staudegger from the 2nd Platoon, 13th Panzer Company, 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler engaged a group of about 50 T-34s around Psyolknee (the southern sector of the German salient in the Battle of Kursk). Staudegger used all his ammunition and claimed the destruction of 22 Soviet tanks, while the rest retreated. For this, he was awarded the Knight's Cross."

Agte, Patrick (2006). Michael Wittmann and the Waffen SS Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte in WWII, Vol. 1. Mechanicsburg: Stackpole Books. ISBN 9780811733342.



Over 10 Tiger tank commanders claimed over 100 vehicle kills each, including Kurt Knispel with 168, Walter Schroif with 161, Otto Carius with 150+, Johannes Bölter with 139+, and Michael Wittmann with 138

Tiger Aces alanhamby.com



The Tiger I is claimed to have a ratio of 5.74 kills to each loss, with 9,850 tank kills for a loss of 1,715 Tigers. It is important to note that the number of Tiger Is lost is higher than those produced (1,347), as the Wehrmacht included tanks that had undergone heavy repair in the total

Tiger Aces alanhamby.com
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:07 am

"Tigers were capable of penetrating the front of an American M4 Sherman between 1,800 and 2,100 m (1.1 and 1.3 mi)... the British Churchill IV between 1,100 and 1,700 m (0.68 and 1.1 mi), the Soviet T-34 between 100 and 1,400 m (0.062 and 0.87 mi), and the Soviet IS-2 between 100 and 300 m (0.062 and 0.19 mi).... The Soviet T-34 equipped with the 76.2 mm gun could not penetrate the Tiger frontally at any range... but could achieve a side penetration at approximately 500 m firing BR-350P APCR ammunition.... The T34-85's 85 mm gun could penetrate the front of a Tiger between 200 and 500 m (0.12 and 0.31 mi).... the IS-2s 122 mm gun could penetrate the front between 500 and 1,500 m (0.31 and 0.93 mi)."

Jentz, Tom; Doyle, Hillary (1993). Tiger 1 Heavy Tank 1942-45. illustrated by Sarson, Peter. Osprey. ISBN 9781855323377.


From a 30 degree angle of attack, the M4 Sherman's 75 mm gun could not penetrate the Tiger frontally at any range, and needed to be within 100 m to achieve a side penetration against the 80 mm upper hull superstructure.

Jentz, Tom; Doyle, Hillary (1993). Tiger 1 Heavy Tank 1942-45. illustrated by Sarson, Peter. Osprey. ISBN 9781855323377.


The British 17-pounder as used on the Sherman Firefly, firing its normal APCBC ammunition, could penetrate the front out to 1000 m. The US 76 mm gun, if firing the APCBC M62 ammunition, could penetrate the Tiger side armor out to just over 500 m, and could penetrate the upper hull superstructure at ranges of 200 m. Using HVAP ammunition, which was in constant short supply and primarily issued to tank destroyers, frontal penetrations were possible out to just over 500 m.

As range decreases in combat, all guns can penetrate more armour (with the exception of HEAT ammunition, which was rare in World War II). The great penetrating power of the Tiger's gun meant that it could destroy many of its opponents at ranges at which they could not respond. In open terrain, this was a major tactical advantage. Opposing tanks were often forced to make a flanking attack in order to knock out a Tiger.


From wiki.
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by mkenny » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:09 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:"...Furthermore, against the Soviet and Western Allied production numbers, even a 10:1 kill ratio would not have been sufficient. Some Tiger units did exceed the 10:1 kill ratio, including 13. Kompanie/Panzer-Regiment Großdeutschland (16.67:1), schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 103 (12.82:1) and schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 (13.08:1)..."

- Agte 2006, pp. 103-105.
Oh dear oh dear. It gets worse every time you post..
The quote you use is from Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I
It is in the Tactical Organisation section. However the infomation from the (dubious) in Wilbeck's book Slegehammers
and has nothing to do with Agte.
Agte is footnote '20' that appears in the Combat examples section. The reference to Agte p103-105 is in relation to the sentence "For this, he was awarded the Knight's Cross.[20]" and it has nothing at all to with the quote you claim it references!
Sloppy research, invented references, jumbled facts and misinformation. Sad, really really sad.

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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by mkenny » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:15 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:I don´t need to be a nazi, nor anybody, to have a different, more realistic view of what happened. For sure we are not, nowadays, subjects of nazi propaganda but of those that won.
I think you are mixing things up

I refer to using kill figures compiled by the Nazis for propaganda use. By still using those clearly inflated totals (inflated because they themselves reduced all their own claims in WW2) then you are using "Nazi Propaganda".
How does this confuse you.

I did not need the following :

Agte, Patrick (2006). Michael Wittmann and the Waffen SS Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte in WWII, Vol. 1. Mechanicsburg: Stackpole Books. ISBN 9780811733342

because as I pointed out you are completely wrong. The quote is NOT from that book

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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:27 am

Some interesting information:

Penetration characteristics:

Tiger I vs Cromwell (88mm)

Front turret: 2,000 m
Mantlet: 2,700 m
Drivers front plate: 3,500 m
Nose: 2,500 m
Side, turret: 3,400 m
Superestructure: 3,500 m
Hull: 3,500 m
Rear, turret: 3,500

Cromwell vs. Tiger I (75 mm)

Front turret: 0 m
Mantlet: 0 m
Drivers front plate: 0 m
Nose: 0 m
Side, turret: 100 m
Superestructure: 100 m
Hull: 900 m
Rear, turret: 100

Tiger I vs. Churchill (88 mm)

Front turret: 1,700 m
Mantlet: 1,400 m
Drivers front plate: 1,300 m
Nose: 1,100 m
Side, turret: 1,700 m
Superestructure: 3,000 m
Hull: 3, 000 m
Rear, turret: 2,600

Churchill vs. Tiger I (75 mm)

Front turret: 0 m
Mantlet: 0 m
Drivers front plate: 0 m
Nose: 0 m
Side, turret: 100 m
Superestructure: 100 m
Hull: 900 m
Rear, turret: 100


Tiger I vs. Sherman (88 mm)

Front turret: 1,800 m
Mantlet: 200 m
Drivers front plate: 0 m
Nose: 0 m
Side, turret: 2,100 m
Superestructure: 3,500 m
Hull: 3,500m
Rear, turret: 3,500

Sherman vs. Tiger I

Front turret: 0 m
Mantlet: 0 m
Drivers front plate: 0 m
Nose: 0 m
Side, turret: 100 9
Superestructure: 100 m
Hull: 000m
Rear, turret: 100


Tiger I vs. Sherman A4 (88 mm)

Front turret: 1,800 m
Mantlet: 200 m
Drivers front plate: 0 m
Nose: 0 m
Side, turret: 2,100 m
Superestructure: 3,500 m
Hull: 3,500m
Rear, turret: 3,500

Sherman A4 vs Tiger I (76 mm)

Front turret: 700 m
Mantlet: 100 m
Drivers front plate: 600 m
Nose: 400 m
Side, turret: 1,800 m
Superestructure: 1,800 m
Hull: 3,200m
Rear, turret: 1,800

Tiger I vs. T34/85 (88 mm)

Front turret: 1,400 m
Mantlet: 400 m
Drivers front plate: 100 m
Nose: 100 m
Side, turret: 2,200 m
Superestructure: 2,100 m
Hull: 3,500m
Rear, turret: 3,200


T34/85 vs. Tiger I(85 mm)

Front turret: 500 m
Mantlet: 0 m
Drivers front plate: 300 m
Nose: 200 m
Side, turret: 1,600 m
Superestructure: 1,600 m
Hull: 2,900m
Rear, turret: 1,600 m

Source: Jentz, Thomas L. Germany´s Tiger tanks - Tiger I & II: Combat tactics. ISBN 0-7643-0225-6

No need to add comments to this information.
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Re: Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:33 am

mkenny:
Oh dear oh dear. It gets worse every time you post..
The quote you use is from Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I
It is in the Tactical Organisation section. However the infomation from the (dubious) in Wilbeck's book Slegehammers
and has nothing to do with Agte.
Agte is footnote '20' that appears in the Combat examples section. The reference to Agte p103-105 is in relation to the sentence "For this, he was awarded the Knight's Cross.[20]" and it has nothing at all to with the quote you claim it references!
Sloppy research, invented references, jumbled facts and misinformation. Sad, really really sad.
I did commit an error when rushing to answer your insults. Not a problem, I´m not regarding myself as perfect. I mixed things but, at least, I´m not posting the same photo twice in order to make believe things that are far from true.

Anyway you are not contesting the facts, which are supported by the Jentz information. Or are we going all the way to Monty and Caen again?
Last edited by Karl Heidenreich on Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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