Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

[mkenny]

It seems some have difficulty understanding the difference between introducing a new and untested weapon system into service slowly by ironing out the bugs (Meteor) and desperate attempts to stave off defeat by putting it straight into front line service(Me 262)
Simply told there was no need for the Allies to take risks or kill their own pilots because the end of the war was in sight. They had won!

[hammy]

...Of al 400+ German divisions the one on top (elite of the elite) is the Panzer Grenadier Division Gross Deutschland from 1943 !! It was the best division of WWII in every aspect.

You really should watch those superlatives. "every aspect" !!! I seriously doubt it.

A good account of the reality of life in GD is to be found in Guy Sajer's long account of his service from 1943 to 1945 in one of their motorised/mechanised light infantry battalions ( "The Forgotten Soldier" ).
He was actually a French boy from Alsace , enlisted initially for sevice with the Supply service ( Convoy-truppen ) in 1942 and served in supply during the severe (Stalingrad) winter of 1942/3 , and who "Volunteered" for transfer to the GD thereafter . He says the SS Panzer divisions were regarded as generally the best and hardest fighting formations on the Ostfront and that the GD were "nobodies" in comparison .

[RF]

The KM marine units you allude to hammy I believe were created at the start of 1945 out of naval personel previously involved with coastal artillery, and used to provide land defence of naval installations in Germany as the allies closed in. There never was a German equivalent of the RN's Royal Marines, not even in the Kaiser's navy, and I don't think in today's Bundesmarine either. If I'm wrong on that I'm sure somebody will correct me.

[RF]

[
He says the SS Panzer divisions were regarded as generally the best and hardest fighting formations on the Ostfront and that the GD were "nobodies" in comparison .

Soviet intelligence seemed to have a different view - or did they confuse the Panzer troops with the grenadier troops?

[hammy]

It seems some have difficulty understanding the difference between introducing a new and untested weapon system into service slowly by ironing out the bugs (Meteor) and desperate attempts to stave off defeat by putting it straight into front line service(Me 262)
Simply told there was no need for the Allies to take risks or kill their own pilots because the end of the war was in sight. They had won!

But the Me262 HAD been in service for over a year , but principally as a bomber and in several prototype variants in other roles .
It was as a fighter that deployment was late . Like Adolf Galland says .
We've been over all this before about the 262 on the seperate thread about the type and political interference by Hitler . Trying to make out that the plane was a dog is to contradict the key witnesses , who are the guys who actually flew it .
I'm quite sure that it was dangerous and needed careful handling , but then so did all of the early jets , probably the most dangerous collection of planes ever produced .
The Gloster Meteor wasn't anything terrific in fighter combat , just a conventional airframe to use two of the early , low powered Allied jets of the time . It did badly in Korea against the Mig15 , the messerschmitt derived (different) design developed post WW2 in Russia .
If you really want to look at the dogfight scenario , then compare Me262 with de Havilland Vampire or the He Salamander
( with a proper Phenol glue used to stick the airframe together instead )

[hammy]

The KM marine units you allude to hammy I believe were created at the start of 1945 out of naval personel previously involved with coastal artillery, and used to provide land defence of naval installations in Germany as the allies closed in. There never was a German equivalent of the RN's Royal Marines, not even in the Kaiser's navy, and I don't think in today's Bundesmarine either. If I'm wrong on that I'm sure somebody will correct me.

Oh ! Let me have a dig around , I'm sure Ive got something here from WW1 period with Marinetruppen - Or did you mean no actual seperate marines service , as a sort of fourth armed service as in the US ? That would probably be right , I think these are straight Km units , but branch-of-service seperately badged to distinguish .

[hammy]

[
He says the SS Panzer divisions were regarded as generally the best and hardest fighting formations on the Ostfront and that the GD were "nobodies" in comparison .

Soviet intelligence seemed to have a different view - or did they confuse the Panzer troops with the grenadier troops?

Well this is one young ordinary squaddy who is giving his own take on things , and I've noticed before that if you are in the front of events your account may well vary wildly from the considered historical assessments of posterity .
Jolly good long read though , I think there is a reprint paperback out on the shelves still , good book on aspects of background stuff on the Ostfront that you normally dont get to hear about .

[Byron Angel]

The KM marine units you allude to hammy I believe were created at the start of 1945 out of naval personel previously involved with coastal artillery, and used to provide land defence of naval installations in Germany as the allies closed in. There never was a German equivalent of the RN's Royal Marines, not even in the Kaiser's navy, and I don't think in today's Bundesmarine either. If I'm wrong on that I'm sure somebody will correct me.

Oh ! Let me have a dig around , I'm sure Ive got something here from WW1 period with Marinetruppen - Or did you mean no actual seperate marines service , as a sort of fourth armed service as in the US ? That would probably be right , I think these are straight Km units , but branch-of-service seperately badged to distinguish .

..... Imperial Germany fielded its first "marine" infantry formation (Marinekorps Flandern) in 1914. It was principally seen as a defensive force and to the best of my knowledge was not trained for offensive amphibious operations. It served on the Belgian and northwest French coasts defending the numerous coastal battery positions as well as a short portion of the front.

See "Wielding the Dagger" by Mark Karau for an excellent overview of its WW1 operations.


Byron

[tommy303]

Neither the Imperial Navy nor the Kriegsmarine maintained permanent standing 'marine' units as typified by the Royal Marines, USMC or the Imperial Japanese marines. Part of the problem comes from Marine, which in German can mean navy or naval rather than a specialized type of soldier--i.e., Marinekorps Flandern meant simply Naval Corp Flanders instead of Marine Corps a la US Marine Corps. All German naval personnel were technically soldiers since their initial training was as such, so in theory any naval personnel could be drafted into temporary or semi permanent naval infantry or assault units with minimal extra training.

[mkenny]

We've been over all this before about the 262 on the seperate thread about the type and political interference by Hitler

The Me 262 was designed with the ability to carry bombs. It was not something they bolted on later that 'fataly' degraded it's performance.

Trying to make out that the plane was a dog is to contradict the key witnesses , who are the guys who actually flew it .

But then no one said it was a dog. Just that it was not properly deveoped and thus ready for full front line service. The dire circumstances forced the Germans hand. In more settled times they would not have deployed it until it was a more mature design.
If it had proved to be a great advance then what was to stop the Allies using their experimental models as front line counters?

the Me262 HAD been in service for over a year , but principally as a bomber and in several prototype variants in other roles .

The first prototype to carry bombs was V10.
The first 9 production models were not finished until May 1944. 26 were made in June. The engines operational life span was 10 hours.

[Karl Heidenreich]

hammy:

He says the SS Panzer divisions were regarded as generally the best and hardest fighting formations on the Ostfront and that the GD were "nobodies" in comparison

That´s a real hard one! The Gross Deutschland is referred to be one of the great units but I do still think, for what I read, that the Waffen SS Pz and PanzerGrenadier divisions are the best and hardest. I vote Waffen SS.

Best regards,

[Karl Heidenreich]

Lately we have been lucky enough of having mkenny sending his beautifull photos so, I think, we may be able to see the other side of the coin. I found these videos (in youtube) about one of the greatest, if not the greatest, tank aces the world have ever seen: Michael Wittman:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... n&rclk=pti

Enjoy!

Best regards,

[mkenny]

Wouild that be the Michael Wittmann who was given a KC for knocking out 24 tanks on 13/6/44 when he only saw 11?
I wonder why they had to lie, inflate his score and add 13 extra tanks into his total?

Perhaps it is an SS thing.
Anyway here is the result of his brilliant attack on 8/7/44

ENJOY

[mkenny]

If you like pictures here are some more of the the wrecks left behind by Wittmann's Unit (sSS PzAbt 101)as it was thrown out on Normandy .
I can do the same for the 2 other Tiger I Abteilung in Normandy and then move on to the 40 Tiger II's also destroyed in July-August 1944 in France.

[alecsandros]

Lately we have been lucky enough of having mkenny sending his beautifull photos so, I think, we may be able to see the other side of the coin. I found these videos (in youtube) about one of the greatest, if not the greatest, tank aces the world have ever seen: Michael Wittman:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... n&rclk=pti

Enjoy!

Best regards,

Hello Karl!
Well, Wittman's achievements are very difficult to surpass... He was most likely the most successfull tank commander of the second world war.