I suspect the reluctance to surrender in the East was because they knew what was going to happen when the relatives of all the murdered civilians caught up with them.
I wonder if those soviet soldiers considered Hitler or Stalin as the responsible murderer... after all Stalin killed more russian civilians than Hitler and still can claim being an "ally" and "friend" of the western powers that promised to liberate Poland from barbarian dictatorship, only to let half of Europe in hands of one of the most criminal and dangerous dictatorships in History and throw the World in a Cold War that lasted for decades, killed millions and threatened Humankind to live in a nuclear winter or in a comunist totalitarism.
Moral stance is something the damn soviets didn´t have since day one of their evil revolution.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill
Karl Heidenreich wrote:
the western powers that promised to liberate Poland
Britain promised said she would declare war on Germany if she invaded Poland. She fulfilled her promise. No promise of 'libersation was ever made. Pre-war Poland wasn't exactly a model of democracy and she took a bit of Czechoslovakia along with Germany.
Britain promised said she would declare war on Germany if she invaded Poland. She fulfilled her promise. No promise of 'libersation was ever made. Pre-war Poland wasn't exactly a model of democracy and she took a bit of Czechoslovakia along with Germany.
During the war years the liberation of Poland was part of the allied demagogue´s speeches. It was also used as a moral standpoint by then.
Also Polish units fought with the western allies, as we can appreciatte from the RAF or the famous First Polish Airborne Brigade that participated in Monty´s Market Garden failure and which, by the way, were the ones that helped to get out the "Red Devils" out of their last stand position when withdrawing was decided. Many polish soldiers fought and died alonside the western allies and many civilians and partisans endured a bitter fight against the nazi occupation in a stronger way than other "allies".
We must see that the famous critic of Monty, General Sosabowsky, was never able to return to Poland and died in England (if I´m not wrong he finish his life working in a factory, maybe as a gratitude from the allies to all those they betrayed).
Warmest regards,
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill
Karl Heidenreich wrote:
I wonder if those soviet soldiers considered Hitler or Stalin as the responsible murderer... after all Stalin killed more russian civilians than Hitler and still can claim being an "ally" and "friend" of the western powers that promised to liberate Poland from barbarian dictatorship, only to let half of Europe in hands of one of the most criminal and dangerous dictatorships in History and throw the World in a Cold War that lasted for decades, killed millions and threatened Humankind to live in a nuclear winter or in a comunist totalitarism.
Moral stance is something the damn soviets didn´t have since day one of their evil revolution.
I think Russian soldiers were mostly uneducated peasants and had no knowledge of Stalin's depredations. They were highly patriotic. I really don't think political theories affected them much. For much of the war they were defending their homeland against a brutal invasion.
Bgile wrote: ...I think Russian soldiers were mostly uneducated peasants and had no knowledge of Stalin's depredations.
That they were for the most part uneducated peasnats is probably correct. I wouldn't however bank on their lack of knowledge. Indeed the stiffening of resistance to the Germans due to their dpredations may be a pointer otherwise.
They were highly patriotic. I really don't think political theories affected them much. For much of the war they were defending their homeland against a brutal invasion.
Depends a lot on what you mean by patriotic. I'm not at all convinced they thought of themselves all that much as "Soviets" but as Russians, Ukrainians, Cossacks, etc. The former seem to have faught at least as much for "mother Russia" as for the USSR or communism.
We may be saying essentially the same thing here but using differnt words or lookinig at it from a different angle.
I think they believed in their part in the war. They believed much of what was told them about German depredations, and they saw evidence of that, and they weren't told much of anything about Stalin's purges.
Bgile wrote:I think they believed in their part in the war. They believed much of what was told them about German depredations, and they saw evidence of that, and they weren't told much of anything about Stalin's purges.
They wouldn't have heard much through "official" channels but word of mouth can spread info surprisingly fast especially in societies where it's the norm. Then to there were all the "show" trials and such connected with the purges that were defintily reported in the official media. Certainly the Unkrainians initially welcomed the Germans.
Bgile wrote:I think they believed in their part in the war. They believed much of what was told them about German depredations, and they saw evidence of that, and they weren't told much of anything about Stalin's purges.
They wouldn't have heard much through "official" channels but word of mouth can spread info surprisingly fast especially in societies where it's the norm. Then to there were all the "show" trials and such connected with the purges that were defintily reported in the official media. Certainly the Unkrainians initially welcomed the Germans.
So you think all the celebrations postwar with all the old guys proudly wearing their uniforms was all propaganda? I don't. I think the average Russian war veteran makes US rednecks look like liberals.
mkenny wrote:Britain promised said she would declare war on Germany if she invaded Poland. She fulfilled her promise. No promise of 'libersation was ever made. Pre-war Poland wasn't exactly a model of democracy and she took a bit of Czechoslovakia along with Germany.
This is correct. There was no way the British could give any direct support to Poland in September 1939, only the French could have done that, and that by launching an all out offensive from the Maginot Line into western Germany - which we now know would have succeeded. but even that would not have prevented the Soviets from invading eastern Poland - short of Britain and France going to war with Russia.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Karl Heidenreich wrote:
During the war years the liberation of Poland was part of the allied demagogue´s speeches. It was also used as a moral standpoint by then.
Except that it was the Russians doing the ''liberating'' and Stalin had his own interpretation of that.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Bgile wrote:I think they believed in their part in the war. They believed much of what was told them about German depredations, and they saw evidence of that, and they weren't told much of anything about Stalin's purges.
They wouldn't have heard much through "official" channels but word of mouth can spread info surprisingly fast especially in societies where it's the norm. Then to there were all the "show" trials and such connected with the purges that were defintily reported in the official media. Certainly the Unkrainians initially welcomed the Germans.
So you think all the celebrations postwar with all the old guys proudly wearing their uniforms was all propaganda? I don't. I think the average Russian war veteran makes US rednecks look like liberals.
I don't see how you get that from what I said. Of course they were proud they had a lot to be proud of. That doesn't mean they weren't aware of the purges.
Patriotic displays by old soldiers may reflect pride in their wartime service, or affection for their comrades or their homeland. They don't necessarily indicate complete and unquestioning acceptance of every act of every government or ruling junta under which those men may have lived.
Byron Angel wrote:Patriotic displays by old soldiers may reflect pride in their wartime service, or affection for their comrades or their homeland. They don't necessarily indicate complete and unquestioning acceptance of every act of every government or ruling junta under which those men may have lived.
Byron
Yes, of course ... that's rather obvious.
lwd,
Every time I made a comment about Russian soldiers being patriotic, you made some counter argument. How was I supposed to take that, other than you think they weren't. You seem to just take to opposite side of almost any statement sometimes, regardless of it's merit.
Bgile wrote: ... Every time I made a comment about Russian soldiers being patriotic, you made some counter argument. How was I supposed to take that, other than you think they weren't. You seem to just take to opposite side of almost any statement sometimes, regardless of it's merit.
My point was that your assumption of a lack of knowledge was probably wrong. I never suggested or meant to suggest that they weren't patriotic. Indeed your posts seem to indicate that the two were not compatible (ie patriotism and awareness of Stalins purges).
