Soviet invasion of Germany

Non-naval discussions about the Second World War. Military leaders, campaigns, weapons, etc.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7603
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Soviet invasion of Germany

Post by RF » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:57 pm

JtD wrote: Also, the Soviets wouldn't suffer the same huge losses they historically suffered in 1941, making them more of a threat than they historically were.
How do you know?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7603
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Soviet invasion of Germany

Post by RF » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:00 pm

JtD wrote:Napoleon got to Moscow and Russia still wasn't defeated. The reasons for the "defeat" in WW1 were not primarily military, but political.

A counter attack by the Germans equaling Barbarossa isn't militarily possible, unless Germany had prepared for an invasion and was just waiting for the Soviets to attack.
The strategy would be to be fully prepared for such an invasion, as a deterrance. If the Soviets did attack - Germany would be ready, and would offer on a large scale a demonstration of what Guderian was talking about in Achtung Panzer!
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

JtD
Member
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:37 pm

Re: Soviet invasion of Germany

Post by JtD » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:47 pm

So basically you are proposing that Germany, which was bound by the treaty of Versailles and wasn't allowed to possess any significant army, navy or air force and was just recovering from a full economic crises, would go to an all out war economy with no major trouble and all the other nations on the planet, some of which still occupied parts of Germany, would watch and do nothing about it?

Ok, yes, in this case Germany could certainly do a lot better than it historically did.

However, it is more realistic to propose a scenario where Japan skips Pearl Harbour for a full blown and successful invasion of the continental US.

I don't think you've done a lot of reading regarding pre-war Germany. But then I may be wrong. What Germany managed in the 1930ies is amazing and it will be very hard to find ways to significantly improve on the success. I don't think posting a few lines on an internet message board is the right way to find them.

I know that the Soviets wouldn't suffer the same losses in an offense as they suffered in defense because the losses were related to the defensive nature of their fighting and the Blitzkrieg tactics deployed by the Germans. However, since you propose that the Soviets attack by defending against a surprise attack by the Germans my point is not valid.

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7603
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Soviet invasion of Germany

Post by RF » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:33 am

JtD wrote:
So basically you are proposing that Germany, which was bound by the treaty of Versailles and wasn't allowed to possess any significant army, navy or air force and was just recovering from a full economic crises, would go to an all out war economy with no major trouble and all the other nations on the planet, some of which still occupied parts of Germany, would watch and do nothing about it?
For the period 1933 to 1941 it would certainly have been possible.

For starters nobody was seeking to enforce Versailles, which would have stopped Hitler in his tracks. Indeed the appeasers had a guilty conscience over the severity of Versailles and offered Germany concessions, including an international agreement to allow Germany to build to 35% of the strength of the Royal Navy, and a return of some of Imperial Germany's former African colonies.
German rearmament would initially have been fully supported by Britain and France, as Germany was seen as a bulwark against Soviet communism. German naval expansion to the agreed limit - achievable by 1941 with the proper allocation and utilisation of resources - could have been attained. A more reasonable Fuhrer at the time of Munich could have achieved much more in gaining concessions out of the Briotish and French, not least in increased trading facilities with the British Empire for supplying the growing German economy with strategic raw materials.

Proper strategic planning and expansion of all the armed forces could have put Germany into a much stronger position by 1940, and if there was no anti-semitism the ''brain drain'' of Jewish and other scientists would not have been lost by the German economy. Bearing in mind that the mid to late 1930's was the one time that Keynesian deficit financing actually could have worked as the Keynesians wanted it to work - before we had the arrival of Milton Friedman amd inflationary expectations - this scenario of rapid econmic growth in a centrally directed private enterprise economy was entirely possible. The resources were there.
Last edited by RF on Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7603
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Soviet invasion of Germany

Post by RF » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:35 am

JtD wrote:
However, it is more realistic to propose a scenario where Japan skips Pearl Harbour for a full blown and successful invasion of the continental US.
Can you please explain why.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7603
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Soviet invasion of Germany

Post by RF » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:36 am

JtD wrote:
I don't think you've done a lot of reading regarding pre-war Germany.
Why do you think so?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7603
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Soviet invasion of Germany

Post by RF » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:44 am

JtD wrote:
What Germany managed in the 1930ies is amazing and it will be very hard to find ways to significantly improve on the success. I don't think posting a few lines on an internet message board is the right way to find them.
Germany's success in the 1930's was down to propaganda and international bullying.

Yes, unemployment was reduced - from six million in 1933 to one million in 1938. That was largely down to the poicies of Schacht, who used loan facilities to fund the deficit financing. Very inflationary, but the war took up the slack, along with the looting of the occuppied territories. Hitler had no understanding or interest in economics.

With proper incentives for smaller businesses - which in reality were stifled under intense bureacracy - Germany could have done a lot better. It is a matter of using the appropriate mix of macroeconomic and microeconomic policies to manage what would be rapid growth without immediate inflation - what in the 1980's under Reagan and Thatcher was called ''supply side economics.''
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7603
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Soviet invasion of Germany

Post by RF » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:47 am

JtD wrote:
I know that the Soviets wouldn't suffer the same losses in an offense as they suffered in defense because the losses were related to the defensive nature of their fighting and the Blitzkrieg tactics deployed by the Germans.
Why? Try reading Achtung Panzer! by Guderian.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3810
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: Soviet invasion of Germany

Post by lwd » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:09 am

I'd suggest Wages of Destruction

JtD
Member
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:37 pm

Re: Soviet invasion of Germany

Post by JtD » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:05 pm

RF, I still don't think an internet message board is a good place to discuss things as complex as this. I still disagree with almost everything that you said, but I won't discuss this any further, at least for now. I hope you don't mind.

Post Reply