Vic Dale wrote:Well, the point is surely, if you have air superiority you can do just about what you like and that would be the way to play it, draw the RAF up in large numbers. If they won't come up you can do as you please, if they do come you can let attrition do it's work.
You are assuming the attrition will favor the Germans in this where given the situation it will almost assuredly not. The LW has to fly longer distances with the majority of their flight profile over enemy territory or water. The RAF is never going to be far from friendly soil or bases. Net result is operational losses and the effects of combat damage will be much worse for the LW. The RAF is going to be fighting the LW and some probably very inefficent AA from the invasion fleet. The LW on the other hand has to face not only the RAF but RN AA and ground based AA. Furthermore since the LW has to maintain a CAP over the fleet they will be unable to have more than a third of their available fighters doing so at any one time and given thier taskings for Sea Lion likely less than a quarter. The RAF on the otherhand can surge against this CAP meaning they can have a significant numerical superiority. The LW is also going to be forced into a dawn to dusk and beyond operations. Remember roughly half the German losses during the BOB were operational losses (although there likely were some combat effects included in these). Increase your sortie rate and you will see operational losses increase at an even greater rate. Then there is the fact that the RAF was winning the BOB. If you look at available fighters the ratio improved for the RAF shortly after the battle started and never dropped down to the levels at the start of the battle once it was well underway.
As regards the fleet, the Norwegian campaign showed that air superiority in the locality kept the fleet far out to sea or risk being sunk.
Did it? How many British war ships were sunk while combat ready and up to speed? The LW main anti ship bomber at this time was the Stuka I believe. Note that it was withdrawn from use over the channel because it was getting butchered. The British light units can also sortie at night from protected ports so they have less interferance from the LW.
I have not suggested that such a campaign would be a walkover nor that there is anything certain about German victory, but regardless of any other considerations the British army was in ruin and if you have air superiority over a force like that you have an advantage which can be exploited.
The British army can hardly be stated as ruined and by the end of July was pretty much reconstituted. The LW had no hope of maintaining air superiority over even southern England or even the invasion beaches and the waters surrounding them. Furthermore they would have had a very difficult time getting supplies and armor landed even in the event of some initial success.
.... The Luftfwaffe did not stand a chance of success unless it was employed as part of an overall invasion. As he saw it, invasion was an essential part of the Battle of Britain.
The invasion did not stand a success unless the LW was already successful. I've seen documents where by early September the KM was complaining that they were behind in minesweeping required for the invasion because of lack of LW support. The German military especially the KM and Heer recognized that the ability to establish and maintain air supremacy over the invasion fleet and beaches was required for success. Note that it didn't guarantee it.
When Goering let his squadrons loose over the British mainland, he gave away the best advantage he had, superior tactics. When the the RAF was fighting over the skies of France and the lowlands, they lost heavily.
The Lw took considrable losses during the French campaign as well. What else could Goering have done?
The Luftwaffe was not defeated over Britain, they simply failed in their quest to destroy the RAF and that should never be forgotten.
They set out with a numerical edge to destroy the RAF. They ended up significantly weaker than their opponent and did not achieve their victory conditions. That pretty well counts for a defeat in my book.
...It is one of the criticisms aimed at bomber and fighter commands, that they did relatively little during the Blitz and appeared to be sitting on their hands and laurels after September 1940.
That's the first time I've heard that one.
...Landing craft were specialised and re-usable, but in 1940, as well as recyclable craft it would be possible to use ships which could be expended. They could be run ashore on the high tide on Beaches in Kent and then used as piers. Engineers could have suitably adapted the hulks after grounding, cutting down their bows and constructing large ship-to-ship gangways so that other ships could come alongside and quickly disembark men and materiel.
The German's had very little shipping. That's why the Sea Lion plan required the use of hundreds of barges. Many were only intended to make the journey one way. However the gangways you mention would have been trashed by the first storm of any consequence and even creating ones to hold up to tides especially as they would have been subjected to artillery, naval gunfire, and bombing would have been non trivial. The German plans required the capture of a port but they had little capablity of bringing a port back on line if it was not captured intact. Note also that British defenceive works were extensive even this early. You really should read up on Sea Lion first.
An invasion should sail in strength with empty vessels on the extremities and scattered among the troop carriers, to draw enemy forces into attack and which would be covered by concentrated air support.
They didn't have the shipping. What empty vessels do you propose they use for decoys when they are using 1500+ barges for troop carriers.
It is here that the RAF would fight to the finish or permit the landing. The British battle fleet would be subjected to shelling from land which was spotted from the air and to torpedo attack from aircraft and fast attack craft, also covered by aerial support - to say nothing of U-Boats. They would also be dive-bombed.
The roll of the RAF would be to attrit the LW and damage the invasion fleet. The RN would have the primary duty of destroying the invasion fleet. Although the British coastal artillery would also certainly lend a hand. What German guns do you think would have any chance of damaging the British battle fleet from land? What artillery the Germans were bring was small and ammo quantities were limited. The German fleet was incredibly out numbered from small craft all the way up the line to BBs (none of which the Germans had operational during August-October and they had what 1 CA available during this period?). The shallow waters of that area would have been a graveyard for what few U-boats were available and of course the RN can send it's subs in at night as well given the meager ASW assets of the KM they'd have a much easier job than their counter parts.
Any attempt by fast attack craft to distrupt the invasion would be counter attacked by cannon equipped fighters and again the RAF would have to be drawn into this fight or permit the destruction of the fast squadrons of the fleet. The fact that the RAF would be forced to fight over the sea would even the score in pilot losses.
What cannon equipped fighters? Especially considering these attacks would likely be launched at night. But even if not. Remember LW fighters must provide escort to bombing raids, be available for escort for antishipping strikes, and provide a continuous CAP over the invasion fleet. If they are being used in a strike roll as well they are even more overtaxed and vulnerable to RAF fighters. By the way it wouldn't only be fast attack boats. Even armed trawlers can do a decent job vs river barges.
The Luftwaffe would be able to get vast amounts of hardware into the air at any one time and it is this on which success or failure would hinge.
No. Get vast amounts at any one time and the result is nothing or almost nothing at other times. The invasion requires sustained operations which forces the LW into the postion of fighting outnumbered over unfriendly territory.
The RAF was all but driven out of Kent anyway, so if this was the case in the piecemeal operation it would be more than possible in the course of an invasion. If that could be acheived, the RAF would be forced to withdraw it's frontline squadrons to safer regions and lengthen it's reach. Then it would have limited time over the battlefield. The channel is just 22 miles wide at and around Dover and this distance could be traversed by an ME 109 in just 4 minutes, so any surpirise incursion by RAF squadrons could be quickly dealt with.
But Dover is unsuitable for an invasion. The planned invasion beaches were much further from the French coast and even further from the German airfields. Did you realize that no RAF air field was put out of action for more than 24 hours during the entire BOB? Consider also that the British air warning system will give a fair amount of warning of German air activity where the Germans have nothing in place to warn of British incursions. How long does it take an ME109 to get airborn, form up, get up to a reasonable altitude and get to the invasion beaches? My bet is no where near in time to help much with an RAF raid on the invasion fleet.
Once a beachhead with a functional airfield had been established, the march on Dover could begin.
To be functional the airfield has to be out of range of enemy artillery. There was very little armor (for good reasons) included in the invasion plans. How long do you think it's going to take for them to get said airfield? My bet is never.
... Dover would have placed a large port at the disposal of the Germans who could use it to send columns of men and equipment into already occupied territory in preparation for the Battle of London, which of course might go either way.
The British would have wrecked the port before it fell. The Germans had very little capabilty of getting a port back on line. Look at the resources the allies required to do so in France in cases where the port destruction was considered to be rather poorly executed. Dover would not have been funtional for months if not years.
There are a number of ways in which an invasion of Britain could have been acheived.
During WWII there were none that had any decent chance of lasting success.
.... Some of those which were being put in place were quite laughable - I cite the Home Guard and the blazing oil on the water as examples....
The Home Guard may not have looked like much in June of 1940 as time went on it got considerably better. In the fall of 40 I'm not at all sure that a reasonable person would have considered it laughable. The "blazing oil on water" was an interesting concept and might have had some impact especially moral wise. They tested it and concluded it wouldn't be very effective at material destruction of course I'm not sure they tested it against wooden barges of which there would have been large numbers in the invasion fleet. Not sure what's laughable about it.
